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Post by JB on May 24, 2024 7:48:00 GMT -5
It would be beyond pathetic if the Kroenke's eternal loyalty to MPJ will end up knee capping the Jokic era.
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Post by wicked3line on May 24, 2024 8:26:04 GMT -5
It would be beyond pathetic if the Kroenke's eternal loyalty to MPJ will end up knee capping the Jokic era. Well, it appears some version of that exists as KSE loves them some Mizzou. |
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Post by GBG on May 24, 2024 9:34:32 GMT -5
Get ready for the Strawther Breakout Season, because that’s what it will have to be if KCP walks and we get nothing in return (though perhaps a Randy Foyish type of return in a sign and trade if he bolts, Iggy style). CB becomes the starter, PWat becomes the #1 wing off the bench. And Straw becomes a 15 mpg pest on defense and streaky instant offense off the bench. Personally, I wasn’t impressed with Straw and saw him as an undisciplined chucker who thought he was a better shooter than he really was. But if we are to contend, then both Strawther and Watson will have to take leaps. At least with KCP leaving, we don’t go to second apron on July 1st, and as this Athletic article says, we could combine Zeke and Pickett in trade for an $11 million rotation guy. And that’s what we need…a proven rotation guy to take the strain off others in our playoff rotation, no matter who it is. www.nytimes.com/athletic/5506063/2024/05/23/denver-nuggets-nba-playoffs-losing-offseason/Money quote from article: “If he walks, the Nuggets could use their taxpayer midlevel exception to sign another player and stay below the second apron, and could aggregate players in trades and take 110% back (e,g., trade Zeke Nnaji, Jalen Pickett and the 28th pick for a rotation player) as long as the stayed below the second apron.” |
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Post by wizardofcozz on May 24, 2024 10:13:40 GMT -5
My concern, is that we are banking on guys who were the #29, #32, and #37 picks, that even one of those is a rotation player (avg. more than 15 mpg in more than 1 season) at any time in their career would be a homerun by an organization.
Looking back at the nba drafts from 2018-2021 so we are far enough away from them to evaluate the players, here are how many picks from #25-#45 that became rotation pieces
2018 - Moritz Wagner, Robert Williams, Landry Shamet, Jalen Brunson, Devonte Graham, Mitchell Robinson, Gary Trent Jr., Jarred Vanderbilt, Bruce Brown (8/21 became rotation pieces)
2019 - Jordan Poole, Keldon Johnson, Kevin Porter Jr., Nic Claxton, Daniel Gafford, (5/21 became rotation pieces)
2020 - Immaanuel Quicley, Payton Pritchard, Jaden McDaniels, Desmond Bane, Xavier Tillman Jr., Tre Jones, (6/21 became rotation pieces)
2021 - Bones Hyland, Cam Thomas, Herb Jones, (3/21 became rotataion pieces)
So we have 22/84 or about 25% success rate, and yet we need a minimum 66% success rate to patch a bench together. I just struggle with that, and so I can completely understand Malone's frustration. Braun was the 21 pick and I think he definitely has a bright future ahead of him. He's improved his 3PT % from last season, and he can guard, but replacing KCP with Braun doesn't solve the fact that you lose Braun from the bench and who are we going to sub into these games this next season. I would be fine trading MPJ for 2 rotational pieces, but I'm not sure there is a great trade out there that nets us something that will really help. I am of the opinion we ramp Brauns minutes up to 25 mpg, but we need some other pieces to make this work! I also think we need to start playing AG in more non-Jokic minutes and see if he can expand his offensive game and be more of a scorer then he's been asked to. Which is why staggering the starters and bench mroe together has to be something we look at.
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Post by JB on May 24, 2024 10:29:44 GMT -5
three things
1. the Nuggets need to keep KCP if the price tag is not too high. if Morey or some other GM wants to throw some absurd 3/80 type deal at Pope because he missed out on OG and Paul George, you tip your hat to the guy and keep it moving. but if the price is in the same ballpark as what he's making now, his defense/clutchness/leadership is too important to give up
2. the Nuggets need to commit to Christian Braun and Payton Watson. those are the young guys are worth taking a step back for in order to develop. Jalen Pickett, Julian Strawther and Hunter Tyson are not worth the investment, to put it as coldly and bluntly as possible. the only possible NBA player of the group (Strawther) is a career 70% FT shooter (college and pros) which does not portend well for a supposed shooting specialist.
3. bring Bruce back. trade MPJ for Bruce/GTJ. the Nuggets lose size by trading Mike, but that can be offset by upgrading Watson to the starting lineup, which can only happen if we retain KCP and his shooting. we immediately go from worst bench in the NBA to having three starting caliber players off the bench. we could keep Trent jr or trade him for a quality big. we simply cannot field a competitive team with 3 max contracts on the books and MPJ is not a max player. we have to break his salary up into two players.
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Post by GBG on May 24, 2024 10:46:29 GMT -5
My concern, is that we are banking on guys who were the #29, #32, and #37 picks, that even one of those is a rotation player (avg. more than 15 mpg in more than 1 season) at any time in their career would be a homerun by an organization. Looking back at the nba drafts from 2018-2021 so we are far enough away from them to evaluate the players, here are how many picks from #25-#45 that became rotation pieces 2018 - Moritz Wagner, Robert Williams, Landry Shamet, Jalen Brunson, Devonte Graham, Mitchell Robinson, Gary Trent Jr., Jarred Vanderbilt, Bruce Brown (8/21 became rotation pieces) 2019 - Jordan Poole, Keldon Johnson, Kevin Porter Jr., Nic Claxton, Daniel Gafford, (5/21 became rotation pieces) 2020 - Immaanuel Quicley, Payton Pritchard, Jaden McDaniels, Desmond Bane, Xavier Tillman Jr., Tre Jones, (6/21 became rotation pieces) 2021 - Bones Hyland, Cam Thomas, Herb Jones, (3/21 became rotataion pieces) So we have 22/84 or about 25% success rate, and yet we need a minimum 66% success rate to patch a bench together. I just struggle with that, and so I can completely understand Malone's frustration. Braun was the 21 pick and I think he definitely has a bright future ahead of him. He's improved his 3PT % from last season, and he can guard, but replacing KCP with Braun doesn't solve the fact that you lose Braun from the bench and who are we going to sub into these games this next season. I would be fine trading MPJ for 2 rotational pieces, but I'm not sure there is a great trade out there that nets us something that will really help. I am of the opinion we ramp Brauns minutes up to 25 mpg, but we need some other pieces to make this work! I also think we need to start playing AG in more non-Jokic minutes and see if he can expand his offensive game and be more of a scorer then he's been asked to. Which is why staggering the starters and bench mroe together has to be something we look at. Interesting analysis. If you include Watson, who was a virtual rookie, to the group of Straw, Tyson, and Pickett, I can confidently say that we already have a 25% hit rate on our 29-37 picks since we know PWat is a part of our rotation again next season at 15+ mpg. This could easily go to 50% with Straw earning time. But it’s unproven. Tyson and Pickett seem more like trade chips to me and I don’t see Malone giving them a chance. Then, we also have #28. We will either use it for a pick next month, or package it in trade with Zeke and Pickett as suggested in The Athletic article. If we do that trade, btw, I’d really like to see us go after Richaun Holmes, who would slot in nicely as our backup C. |
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Post by JB on May 24, 2024 11:01:17 GMT -5
thank god for Malone, he's probably the only voice of sanity in that front office standing between Calvin and his goonies movement.
Calvin simply cannot be allowed to take the Nuggets 10 steps back because he wants Adam f***ing Mares and other bloggers to call him a draft genius like they did his predecessor. the stakes are too high and Jokic isn't getting younger.
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Post by wizardofcozz on May 24, 2024 11:03:18 GMT -5
My concern, is that we are banking on guys who were the #29, #32, and #37 picks, that even one of those is a rotation player (avg. more than 15 mpg in more than 1 season) at any time in their career would be a homerun by an organization. Looking back at the nba drafts from 2018-2021 so we are far enough away from them to evaluate the players, here are how many picks from #25-#45 that became rotation pieces 2018 - Moritz Wagner, Robert Williams, Landry Shamet, Jalen Brunson, Devonte Graham, Mitchell Robinson, Gary Trent Jr., Jarred Vanderbilt, Bruce Brown (8/21 became rotation pieces) 2019 - Jordan Poole, Keldon Johnson, Kevin Porter Jr., Nic Claxton, Daniel Gafford, (5/21 became rotation pieces) 2020 - Immaanuel Quicley, Payton Pritchard, Jaden McDaniels, Desmond Bane, Xavier Tillman Jr., Tre Jones, (6/21 became rotation pieces) 2021 - Bones Hyland, Cam Thomas, Herb Jones, (3/21 became rotataion pieces) So we have 22/84 or about 25% success rate, and yet we need a minimum 66% success rate to patch a bench together. I just struggle with that, and so I can completely understand Malone's frustration. Braun was the 21 pick and I think he definitely has a bright future ahead of him. He's improved his 3PT % from last season, and he can guard, but replacing KCP with Braun doesn't solve the fact that you lose Braun from the bench and who are we going to sub into these games this next season. I would be fine trading MPJ for 2 rotational pieces, but I'm not sure there is a great trade out there that nets us something that will really help. I am of the opinion we ramp Brauns minutes up to 25 mpg, but we need some other pieces to make this work! I also think we need to start playing AG in more non-Jokic minutes and see if he can expand his offensive game and be more of a scorer then he's been asked to. Which is why staggering the starters and bench mroe together has to be something we look at. Interesting analysis. If you include Watson, who was a virtual rookie, to the group of Straw, Tyson, and Pickett, I can confidently say that we already have a 25% hit rate on our 29-37 picks since we know PWat is a part of our rotation again next season at 15+ mpg. This could easily go to 50% with Straw earning time. But it’s unproven. Tyson and Pickett seem more like trade chips to me and I don’t see Malone giving them a chance. Then, we also have #28. We will either use it for a pick next month, or package it in trade with Zeke and Pickett as suggested in The Athletic article. If we do that trade, btw, I’d really like to see us go after Richaun Holmes, who would slot in nicely as our backup C. I really like Watson. I also agree he needs to play consistently this next season. Worst case, is we trade him as a project to a rebuilding team, but we hav to showcase him to do that. IF we keep KCP and MPJ, I feel like there are two things we have to do going forward. 1.) Stagger the bench and starters. The bench we need in the playoffs can get used to playing with the starters. This 1 starter and 4 bench player thing isn't working. I think Jokic can carry a unit that has say, KCP, Watson, and Braun in it. He can at least keep it above water, and Watson, KCP, and Braun will help on the defensive side of things for Jokic. But this also means that AG, Murray, and MPJ need to carry a unit that includes them and two subs. Which gets to my point #2. 2.) AG, Murray, and MPJ need to learn how to play without Jokic. Our offense stinks when Jokic is off the court. It has been what's it's been, but we need to add to our offense. Watching Murray dribble around for 20 seconds to take a contested shot isn't an offense. We need to put stuff in to take advante of what AG and MPJ can do. Why not use MPJ as a screen for Murray, OR use AG as a ball handler more, and utilize him in pick and roll. He's shown some ability to do it, but we need more of it going forward IMO. |
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Post by scooter on May 24, 2024 11:26:13 GMT -5
It would be beyond pathetic if the Kroenke's eternal loyalty to MPJ will end up knee capping the Jokic era. Many people here wrote the same exact thing about Connelly and Will Barton. Don’t take any of that seriously. And unless I am mistaken it was Malone who commented at length about MPJ. For all we know, Josh will be encouraging the FO to evaluate possibilites for an MPJ trade. The Kroenkes see everyone not named Kroenke as an employee who is fungible to some extent. Much less than usual with Jokic for obvious reasons, but still. |
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Post by BBBbbb on May 24, 2024 12:08:14 GMT -5
It would be beyond pathetic if the Kroenke's eternal loyalty to MPJ will end up knee capping the Jokic era. Many people here wrote the same exact thing about Connelly and Will Barton. Don’t take any of that seriously. And unless I am mistaken it was Malone who commented at length about MPJ. For all we know, Josh will be encouraging the FO to evaluate possibilites for an MPJ trade. The Kroenkes see everyone not named Kroenke as an employee who is fungible to some extent. Much less than usual with Jokic for obvious reasons, but still. Exactly, you expect the FO/owners to say they like their players under contract... |
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Post by famicommander on May 24, 2024 13:17:54 GMT -5
Booth said the other day that the main problem was the rookies didn't play enough.
I'm afraid that means he actually thinks Pickett and Tyson are NBA rotation quality players.
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Post by GBG on May 24, 2024 13:40:01 GMT -5
Booth said the other day that the main problem was the rookies didn't play enough. I'm afraid that means he actually thinks Pickett and Tyson are NBA rotation quality players. In case you or anyone didn’t hear it from the horses mouths… youtu.be/g-0XvD8tveQ?si=3uALAf5frqOg-hQEHe says he believes in all his guys, but that’s is what he’s supposed to say. He won’t trash them before trying to trade them! |
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Post by nuggetshipster on May 24, 2024 16:43:43 GMT -5
three things 1. the Nuggets need to keep KCP if the price tag is not too high. if Morey or some other GM wants to throw some absurd 3/80 type deal at Pope because he missed out on OG and Paul George, you tip your hat to the guy and keep it moving. but if the price is in the same ballpark as what he's making now, his defense/clutchness/leadership is too important to give up 2. the Nuggets need to commit to Christian Braun and Payton Watson. those are the young guys are worth taking a step back for in order to develop. Jalen Pickett, Julian Strawther and Hunter Tyson are not worth the investment, to put it as coldly and bluntly as possible. the only possible NBA player of the group (Strawther) is a career 70% FT shooter (college and pros) which does not portend well for a supposed shooting specialist. 3. bring Bruce back. trade MPJ for Bruce/GTJ. the Nuggets lose size by trading Mike, but that can be offset by upgrading Watson to the starting lineup, which can only happen if we retain KCP and his shooting. we immediately go from worst bench in the NBA to having three starting caliber players off the bench. we could keep Trent jr or trade him for a quality big. we simply cannot field a competitive team with 3 max contracts on the books and MPJ is not a max player. we have to break his salary up into two players. Nuggets definitely shouldnt «comitt» to Watson. I dont want to waste another year of Jokic Watson starting is insane |
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Post by wicked3line on May 24, 2024 17:42:31 GMT -5
It would be beyond pathetic if the Kroenke's eternal loyalty to MPJ will end up knee capping the Jokic era. Many people here wrote the same exact thing about Connelly and Will Barton. Don’t take any of that seriously. And unless I am mistaken it was Malone who commented at length about MPJ. For all we know, Josh will be encouraging the FO to evaluate possibilites for an MPJ trade. The Kroenkes see everyone not named Kroenke as an employee who is fungible to some extent. Much less than usual with Jokic for obvious reasons, but still. That's not how KSE works. If Malone is saying that then he was essentially told by KSE that MPJ isn't going anywhere. Face this fact... KSE refuses to admit MPJ was a mistake with a max deal. With that stated his numbers and size would still likely garner a deal at $25 mil/year as it's not like he's the sole reason Nuggets are nearing the 2nd apron. In contrast, they are slowly making it obvious KCP likely will walk if he gets the expected 2-3 year deal at $20 mil/year (Sixers). |
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Post by JB on May 24, 2024 17:51:32 GMT -5
three things 1. the Nuggets need to keep KCP if the price tag is not too high. if Morey or some other GM wants to throw some absurd 3/80 type deal at Pope because he missed out on OG and Paul George, you tip your hat to the guy and keep it moving. but if the price is in the same ballpark as what he's making now, his defense/clutchness/leadership is too important to give up 2. the Nuggets need to commit to Christian Braun and Payton Watson. those are the young guys are worth taking a step back for in order to develop. Jalen Pickett, Julian Strawther and Hunter Tyson are not worth the investment, to put it as coldly and bluntly as possible. the only possible NBA player of the group (Strawther) is a career 70% FT shooter (college and pros) which does not portend well for a supposed shooting specialist. 3. bring Bruce back. trade MPJ for Bruce/GTJ. the Nuggets lose size by trading Mike, but that can be offset by upgrading Watson to the starting lineup, which can only happen if we retain KCP and his shooting. we immediately go from worst bench in the NBA to having three starting caliber players off the bench. we could keep Trent jr or trade him for a quality big. we simply cannot field a competitive team with 3 max contracts on the books and MPJ is not a max player. we have to break his salary up into two players. Nuggets definitely shouldnt «comitt» to Watson. I dont want to waste another year of Jokic Watson starting is insane Watson + the Big 2 has a 15.80 Ntrtg which is in fact better than the Big 2 + MPJ (not by much, but nevertheless). Watson also shot nearly 38% from 3 on wide open threes last season. as I said, starting Watson is only necessary in my hypothetical if you want to maintain a size advantage. you could play him in a similar manner as Karl played Dahtnay Jones during the WCF run to maintain a strong bench. |
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Post by nuggetshipster on May 24, 2024 18:02:28 GMT -5
Those stats existed when Malone chose not to play him in the playoffs no?
Stats isnt everything
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Post by nuggetshipster on May 24, 2024 18:04:02 GMT -5
And that Jones, GK comparison makes no sense because that bench was very good. Moving Watson to the starting 5 wont magically make the bench good 😅
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Post by JB on May 24, 2024 18:05:35 GMT -5
they did.
Malone isn't perfect.
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Post by JB on May 24, 2024 18:06:17 GMT -5
And that Jones, GK comparison makes no sense because that bench was very good. Moving Watson to the starting 5 wont magically make the bench good 😅 sigh. Ok Erik. |
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Post by scooter on May 24, 2024 18:39:17 GMT -5
Those stats existed when Malone chose not to play him in the playoffs no? Stats isnt everything I’m not in the camp bashing Malone for not playing Watson in the TWolves’ series. I am pretty confident that the coaching staff had assessed the matchup this way — if each team is playing half court offense and not turning the ball over much, the Nuggets win; otherwise the TWolves win. Their game plan was to keep turnovers very low and win a half court grind style game. Watson’s skills still lack polish and Malone lacked confidence he wouldn’t turn the ball over. |
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