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Post by wicked3line on Aug 4, 2024 8:56:40 GMT -5
I bet the 2025 NBA Champion is in the 2nd apron Maybe...maybe not. Ultimately if a team is already over the 2nd apron and just won a title (Boston), then of course they run it back. However, the other 2nd apron teams are the Suns (didn't make it out of 1st round), Wolves (eliminated in conference finals), Bucks (eliminated in 1st round), and Lakers (eliminated in 1st round). So outside of the Wolves (which I don't see as title contenders), none of the other 2nd apron teams are expected to make deep playoff runs. With Denver, they ran it back the best they could last season (couldn't match Bruce or Jeff Green contracts), still won 57 games but didn't make it past 2nd round. KCP was not the answer this team needs to get back to the finals and going into the 2nd apron to sign him would have likely eliminated them signing Saric, which this team needed to avoid running Jokic in the ground. Could have still gotten Westbrook on vet min but Saric wouldn't have happened. This ultimately means we swapped out KCP for Saric...which I believe is a net positive and they didn't have to go into the 2nd apron. Outside of Boston, Denver has just as good if not better odds of making it to the finals as the Suns, Bucks, Lakers, and Wolves.
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Post by nuggetshipster on Aug 4, 2024 11:58:42 GMT -5
I bet the 2025 NBA Champion is in the 2nd apron Maybe...maybe not. Ultimately if a team is already over the 2nd apron and just won a title (Boston), then of course they run it back. However, the other 2nd apron teams are the Suns (didn't make it out of 1st round), Wolves (eliminated in conference finals), Bucks (eliminated in 1st round), and Lakers (eliminated in 1st round). So outside of the Wolves (which I don't see as title contenders), none of the other 2nd apron teams are expected to make deep playoff runs. With Denver, they ran it back the best they could last season (couldn't match Bruce or Jeff Green contracts), still won 57 games but didn't make it past 2nd round. KCP was not the answer this team needs to get back to the finals and going into the 2nd apron to sign him would have likely eliminated them signing Saric, which this team needed to avoid running Jokic in the ground. Could have still gotten Westbrook on vet min but Saric wouldn't have happened. This ultimately means we swapped out KCP for Saric...which I believe is a net positive and they didn't have to go into the 2nd apron. Outside of Boston, Denver has just as good if not better odds of making it to the finals as the Suns, Bucks, Lakers, and Wolves. A lot going on here. 1. you dont think Boston is expected to make a deep playoff run? 2. Suns should be better they fixed their biggest weakness (no point guards) 3. KCP definitely was the answer to get to the finals. Look at 2023 as evidence. The answer at SG. Reggie however wasnt the answer at backup PG.
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Post by nuggetshipster on Aug 4, 2024 12:03:03 GMT -5
What does the 2nd apron do? Decrease your flexibility?
We wont part ways with our core. Our fill guys are trash. And we have no picks. THAT decrease your flexibility.
Flexibility in FA? Does anyone expect us so have big cap space anytime soon?
We dumped a championwinning SG to have the flexibility to sign a tax payer mle player in 2025?
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Post by nuggetshipster on Aug 4, 2024 12:04:21 GMT -5
What 2nd apron actually does is just cost a f**k load of money. But its still gives you the best chance to WIN. Thats why Boston, Suns, Minny, Bucks, Lakers all pay it
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Post by LotharBraunBrownBryant on Aug 4, 2024 13:15:14 GMT -5
the 2nd apron costs a f**k load of money, and it also damages flexibility. Can't package contracts in trades, can't use even the TPMLE, eventually future draft picks become locked and untradeable. Teams are obviously in disagreement about how to handle it -- there's a cluster of teams solidly over the apron (Boston, Suns, Minny, Bucks, Lakers, and Heat) and then another cluster of teams just under it (Denver, Philly, Knicks, Mavs, Warriors, Grizz, Clippers).
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Post by rock on Aug 4, 2024 13:24:16 GMT -5
Yeah I don’t care if stan loses $200 million
I do care if we cant sign or trade for players
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Post by jimijam28 on Aug 4, 2024 14:18:12 GMT -5
Yeah I don’t care if stan loses $200 million I do care if we cant sign or trade for players Well Stan does
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Post by GBG on Aug 4, 2024 14:18:46 GMT -5
the 2nd apron costs a f**k load of money, and it also damages flexibility. Can't package contracts in trades, can't use even the TPMLE, eventually future draft picks become locked and untradeable. Teams are obviously in disagreement about how to handle it -- there's a cluster of teams solidly over the apron (Boston, Suns, Minny, Bucks, Lakers, and Heat) and then another cluster of teams just under it (Denver, Philly, Knicks, Mavs, Warriors, Grizz, Clippers). Exactly. The thing about the second apron is this: IF you already have a championship level roster, fully healthy and ready to make a serious run to the title, staying in second apron is worth it. So for Boston, it makes sense. For us? We didn’t have a championship level roster with certain health to make another run by keeping KCP and losing all flexibility to add vets like Saric. It’s not worth it to us. Other franchises are experimenting being in the second apron or out of it for flexibility purposes. Suns being in second apron now makes sense, especially since they have addressed their PG issue with Jones and the others they’ve added. Suns on paper are a top 3 seed now, IMO. We are likely a 4/5 seed on paper, and if I were betting, I’d bet 5th seed. CBA just wasn’t friendly to a top-heavy payroll roster like our’s.
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Post by somborshuffle on Aug 4, 2024 15:16:59 GMT -5
Losing KCP won't cost this team another title. It's pretty clear that the Nuggets need another quality starter who can can create his own shot.
We can only do that by patiently waiting to trade MPJ for the right piece.
Otherwise we're again relying on Murray to play like one of the best players in the world come playoff time. That's a lot to ask.
Beyond that we're relying on MPJ who couldn't score more than 7-8pts in, what was it, the last 3 or 4 games of the Minny series?
Expecting him to change after that is wildly optimistic. He is who he is.
If this team doesn't find another guy who can hit 3s/create their own shot then you're likely just wasting a top 5 all time talent prime.
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Post by wicked3line on Aug 4, 2024 16:57:35 GMT -5
1. you dont think Boston is expected to make a deep playoff run? 2. Suns should be better they fixed their biggest weakness (no point guards) 3. KCP definitely was the answer to get to the finals. Look at 2023 as evidence. The answer at SG. Reggie however wasnt the answer at backup PG. Point #1 I literally said Boston has better chance to get back to the finals relative to Denver and the other 2nd apron tax teams. Might try reading better next time. Point #2 That is an absurd take. The Suns flat-out are NOT serious title contenders as for one KD and Beal can't stay healthy. You lost all credibility with that comment. Point #3 Nobody is saying KCP wasn't an important part of 2022-2023. However, big newsflash as it's the upcoming 2024-2025 season where KCP is turning 32 and last year looked bad in the playoffs with only mediocre regular season numbers. A guy commanding nearly $23 mil/year should be able to give you more than 8 ppg at 35 mpg in the playoffs as this strongly suggests KCP is on the downswing. Keeping him wouldn't have fixed the underlying issues with a backup center and backup PG plus Booth has some younger wings that can replace KCP at the defensive end with minimal drop-off.
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Post by nuggetshipster on Aug 5, 2024 5:01:48 GMT -5
1: you LITERALLY said that outside of Wolves no 2nd apron team would make a deep playoff run. Direct quote so…
2: lmao what. You dont really believe this do you?
3: KCP was amazing. Trying to blame this years loss on him is absolutely insane. Calvin to blame for giving Malone no bench. Malone to blame for pushing starter to hard in RS. Murray to blame for not playing close to what we need from him.
There is nothing you can say that makes not signing KCP worth it unless it is to save money.
People think we have flexibility now that we arent 2nd apron, but we dont. We will not make any trades that will move any needle. MPJ definitely is staying and Murray too.
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Post by nuggetshipster on Aug 5, 2024 5:04:26 GMT -5
And i still havent read the rule that says no 2nd apron team can sign players. We could have easily fixed backup PG and backup C while also keeping KCP.
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Post by wicked3line on Aug 5, 2024 7:44:46 GMT -5
1: you LITERALLY said that outside of Wolves no 2nd apron team would make a deep playoff run. Direct quote so… Whatever as you conveniently skip right over the fact the entire paragraph is about non-Boston 2nd apron teams... "...just won a title (Boston), then of course they run it back. However, the other 2nd apron teams..." You also conveniently omitted the last line in the 2nd paragraph... "...Outside of Boston, Denver has just as good if not better odds of making it to the finals as the Suns, Bucks, Lakers, and Wolves." If you want to interpret that as me saying Boston has no chance to return to the finals...then you are a lost cause.
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Post by nuggetshipster on Aug 5, 2024 7:52:48 GMT -5
Thats my whole point tho. Why the f**k is it non Boston teams?
Either we win. Or a 2nd apron team will win the 2025 NBA championship. But our chances would be greater if we had KCP.
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Post by scooter on Aug 5, 2024 11:20:53 GMT -5
And i still havent read the rule that says no 2nd apron team can sign players. We could have easily fixed backup PG and backup C while also keeping KCP. You lose the TMLE, which the Nuggets used to sign Saric. Despite the risk and the opinions of some, I think the Nuggets may have actually preferred Westbrook to Jones at backup PG. Calvin Booth is very much into size all over the court and Jones doesn’t fit with that philosophy. The team also wanted an injection of toughness and athleticism and pace and Westbrook provides those attributes more than Jones, notwithstanding Jones’ very good skill. Jokic also knows and likes Westbrook and that’s not an insignificant factor.
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Post by scooter on Aug 5, 2024 12:02:40 GMT -5
the 2nd apron costs a f**k load of money, and it also damages flexibility. Can't package contracts in trades, can't use even the TPMLE, eventually future draft picks become locked and untradeable. Teams are obviously in disagreement about how to handle it -- there's a cluster of teams solidly over the apron (Boston, Suns, Minny, Bucks, Lakers, and Heat) and then another cluster of teams just under it (Denver, Philly, Knicks, Mavs, Warriors, Grizz, Clippers). Exactly. The thing about the second apron is this: IF you already have a championship level roster, fully healthy and ready to make a serious run to the title, staying in second apron is worth it. So for Boston, it makes sense. For us? We didn’t have a championship level roster with certain health to make another run by keeping KCP and losing all flexibility to add vets like Saric. It’s not worth it to us. Other franchises are experimenting being in the second apron or out of it for flexibility purposes. Suns being in second apron now makes sense, especially since they have addressed their PG issue with Jones and the others they’ve added. Suns on paper are a top 3 seed now, IMO. We are likely a 4/5 seed on paper, and if I were betting, I’d bet 5th seed. I’m not convinced the Suns will be better. Durant turns 36 next month and last season was the first and only one since his Achilles tear in 2019 in which he played even 60 NBA games. It’s extremely unlikely he plays 75 regular season games like he did last season. Durant had a really good 2023-24 (although the advanced numbers were dramatically below those during his prime) and I don’t think he’ll be as healthy or as good as he was last season. I don’t think they’ve improved their roster enough to make up for the strong likelihood of age-related decline in Durant. The thing about Jones is he’s very skilled but his small size is a very real thing. The Suns already had a team that doesn’t have a lot of quality size. Of their 7 guys who I would call at least good NBA players — Jones, Booker, Beal, Allen, O’Neal, Durant, Nurkic (who is really more mediocre than good) — only 2 are over 6’6. And I don’t know how reliable Durant will be next season. Their center rotation of Nurkic and 36 year old Mason Plumlee is pretty crappy IMO. Their backup for Durant at PF is O’Neal at around 6’5”. Their team basically consists of their lousy centers, Durant, and a bunch of guards. They’re really vulnerable defensively and inside and on the boards. The thing about the addition of Jones is that he can help them cut down on turnovers but only when he’s on the court and then their lineup is likely to be really small. There is a lot of size in the western conference and I see the Suns lack of rotation quality size as a real vulnerability.
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Post by GBG on Aug 5, 2024 16:20:01 GMT -5
Right now, based on all the summer transactions and how the rosters look to me, I’d rank the “fully healthy seeding” likelihood going into next season as follows:
1. OKC 2. Minny 3. Phoenix 4. Dallas 5. Denver 6. Sacramento 7. Golden State 8. Memphis 9. LA Lakers 10. New Orleans 11. LA Clippers 12. Houston 13. San Antonio 14. Utah 15. Portland
We don’t know who will be wracked with injuries. So I am assuming all rosters I see are to be healthy throughout season. It’s why Memphis is 8-seed, as I assume Ja plays a lot. Warriors being #7 might be a shocker, but having Hield and Slo Mo along with sophomore Podz is gonna help Curry out. Losing Klay hurts, but I think they have enough to be a play-in team. Suns might not have length, but they still have top end stars who I assume will be healthy, and fine backcourt shooting with Jones, Booker, and Allen to be a 3rd seed, fully healthy. PG was addressed with two ex-Nuggets too. We are competitive and could have around 50 wins, but I don’t see us better than that unless Watson and CB take major leaps.
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Post by LotharBraunBrownBryant on Aug 5, 2024 16:20:45 GMT -5
honestly I have the Nuggets at 3 at worst.
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Post by GBG on Aug 5, 2024 16:21:57 GMT -5
honestly I have the Nuggets at 3 at worst. Who that I have ranked ahead of Nuggets would you put behind us?
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Post by LotharBraunBrownBryant on Aug 5, 2024 16:27:49 GMT -5
Minny and Phoenix
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