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Post by GBG on Jun 7, 2024 11:47:50 GMT -5
Watching the Finals reminds me (I know I’ve mentioned it as recently as when Naz Reid was pissing me off during the TWolves’ series) of another reason the Nuggets’ depth is poor — doing badly in the undrafted free agent market. The Celtics’ Sam Hauser played 22 minutes/game this season and in 3 NBA seasons now is a career 42% three point shooter. It’s not a shock, because in 4 college seasons as one of the main guys on two different teams (Marquette and Virginia) he shot 44% from three on 700+ attempts and was an 88% FT shooter. That wasn’t a shock either, as in his junior year of high school he shot 51% on threes and he was recruited by strong college programs. At the NBA level, he’s a role player, but its not a tiny role by any stretch — he made 197 threes this season, which was 24th in the entire NBA and many more than every Nugget not named Porter, who made 220 threes. Hauser is an elite shooter. The Nuggets have little to show for the undrafted free agent market since signing Torrey Craig in 2017 (and even that year the Mavs signed Maxi Kleber, a better player). There was Facu, but overall, they haven’t done well from this pool. It compounds a lot of unsuccessful draft picks — other than Porter, the Nuggets have not drafted a single NBA starter — on any team — since 2016. #1 Wait a few years and watch CG prove you wrong, either with us or another NBA team (my bet would be the Knicks). #2 Monte Morris could start for many NBA teams, but was hurt a lot in DC and never got going in Minny. He was a late 2nd round pick in 2017. #3. Cancar was drafted in second round of 2017 draft as well. He hasn’t stayed healthy, but we’ve seen enough to know he can be a solid rotation guy for most NBA teams during the regular season, and hopefully the playoffs. #4 PJ Dozier would have been another Torrey Craig type, but injuries did him in.
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Post by scooter on Jun 7, 2024 12:39:23 GMT -5
Yada, yada, yada.
Gillespie isn’t going to be a 20+ minute/game player in the NBA. He turns 25 in a couple of weeks, so “wait a few years” is a really unimpressive argument. I know some folks here are fans, but I am pretty confident he’s at most a fringe NBA player. If you grade out his abilities, they range from bad to decent. He’s not more than a poor man’s Monte Morris.
We know what Morris is, and he’s definitely not a starter “for many teams.” For the Nuggets, he’d be an upgrade from our current backup PG situation to be sure and I’d enthusiastically welcome him back to the Nuggets. But he’s a good backup PG, not a starter. He was definitely a draft win, though.
Cancar has been a decent depth guy, but nothing remotely close to a starting quality player.
Woulda coulda shoulda on Dozier doesn’t change anything.
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Post by JB on Jun 7, 2024 12:55:07 GMT -5
Dozier, Craig, Morris and Cancar were all products of the previous administration. you could also add players like Hartenstein and Vando to the list. Tim was much more ambitious in finding reclamation projects that can contribute, while Mr. Booth seems fixated on Adam Mares and the clowns at TheRinger.com calling him a draft genius and deluded himself into believing Jalen Picket would step in and perform like Spurs-era Boris Diaw (then a decade+ vet in his 30s) on day one. man on the moon level thinking.
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Post by GBG on Jun 7, 2024 16:55:28 GMT -5
Yada, yada, yada. Gillespie isn’t going to be a 20+ minute/game player in the NBA. He turns 25 in a couple of weeks, so “wait a few years” is a really unimpressive argument. I know some folks here are fans, but I am pretty confident he’s at most a fringe NBA player. If you grade out his abilities, they range from bad to decent. He’s not more than a poor man’s Monte Morris. We know what Morris is, and he’s definitely not a starter “for many teams.” For the Nuggets, he’d be an upgrade from our current backup PG situation to be sure and I’d enthusiastically welcome him back to the Nuggets. But he’s a good backup PG, not a starter. He was definitely a draft win, though. Cancar has been a decent depth guy, but nothing remotely close to a starting quality player. Woulda coulda shoulda on Dozier doesn’t change anything. You can deny Morris can be a starter for several teams in this league, but the fact remains he was a starter for a playoff team just two years ago, namely the 6-seed Nuggets when Murray was out. He’s a lower tier PG as a starter, but many lower tier teams could start him. As we did, and we weren’t even lower tier. Out of necessity, sure, but he started and can do the job. On CG, we shall see. IMO, he’s a much better player than you realize. Has yet to prove it, but I like his chances. Nobody said Cancar is “close to a starting quality player”. I said he is a rotation player on the Nuggets if healthy. He was better than Uncle Jeff the year we won it all, and only lost his role to Green as he was hurt late season.
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Post by scooter on Jun 7, 2024 17:11:14 GMT -5
Dozier, Craig, Morris and Cancar were all products of the previous administration. you could also add players like Hartenstein and Vando to the list. Tim was much more ambitious in finding reclamation projects that can contribute, while Mr. Booth seems fixated on Adam Mares and the clowns at TheRinger.com calling him a draft genius and deluded himself into believing Jalen Picket would step in and perform like Spurs-era Boris Diaw (then a decade+ vet in his 30s) on day one. man on the moon level thinking. Agree to some extent. Hartenstein was a nice reclamation project after he was waived by the Rockets, the team that drafted him in the 2nd round, but unfortunately, the Nuggets didn’t have enough patience or depth at backup C and traded him for a washed McGee when Hartenstein was still only 22. Now he’s an UFA and about to make himself some money. Connelly may have been ambitious in reclamation projects but after 2014 his FO didn’t manage to identify, draft and/or sign any future starter level players other than with lottery picks. 10 years now — that’s a pretty bad record when it comes to scouting/drafting/signing.
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Post by duh88 on Jun 8, 2024 0:28:17 GMT -5
Since 2017: Hartenstein Monte Morris Jared Vanderbilt Torrey Craig Vlatko Cancar Bones Hyland (?) Christian Braun Peyton Watson Julian Strawther
Math shakes out to more than one quality role player per year. And Watson is a major hit - Strawther will be a quality role player. This doesn’t even include what Pickett or Tyson could become.
I don’t think the management is the issue with the bench. The nuggets have managed to find some decent players on cheap contracts.
The problem is malone. Malone runs our starters into the ground. Even when we had Monte, the bench was garbage - why?
I don’t think Malone spends time developing the bench or creating a bench strategy. Our bench was awesome during the championship run, but that was primarily because Bruce brown would just dive bomb into the paint for layups, about 10 times per game (if he was guarded hard, he would kick out to Uncle Jeff, which was often a made-3). Strawther will give us that driving-ability next season.
But again - Malone clearly has no plans for the bench units. The only times bench units have succeeded under him, again, is when we’ve had a good driver whose willing to get beat up in the paint and fight for a layup. If Malone actually spent time creating a "bench" strategy, we would be fine in that department.
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Post by nuggetshipster on Jun 8, 2024 4:05:45 GMT -5
Not at all high on Hayward. Getting him smacks of dumpster diving due to financial constraints with second apron. If KCP walks, we are NOT in second apron, and can do better than Hayward who at 35, could be running on empty. Or at least running on fumes. Gary Harris might be a better player and is 5 years younger than Hayward. Both are big injury risks. Beggars cant be choosers. Hayward for the min as JB have said too many times now is low risk, high reward. Everyone knows haywards downsides, but who do you downers suggest instead?
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Post by nuggetshipster on Jun 8, 2024 4:06:31 GMT -5
I guess no "I'm home" press conference in Washington after all. Minny is paying Timmy a shitton of money, I'm very interested to see how he negatives around the the second-apron iceberg the Tpups heading towards Best GM in the league hands down
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Post by nuggetshipster on Jun 8, 2024 4:10:35 GMT -5
Yada, yada, yada. Gillespie isn’t going to be a 20+ minute/game player in the NBA. He turns 25 in a couple of weeks, so “wait a few years” is a really unimpressive argument. I know some folks here are fans, but I am pretty confident he’s at most a fringe NBA player. If you grade out his abilities, they range from bad to decent. He’s not more than a poor man’s Monte Morris. We know what Morris is, and he’s definitely not a starter “for many teams.” For the Nuggets, he’d be an upgrade from our current backup PG situation to be sure and I’d enthusiastically welcome him back to the Nuggets. But he’s a good backup PG, not a starter. He was definitely a draft win, though. Cancar has been a decent depth guy, but nothing remotely close to a starting quality player. Woulda coulda shoulda on Dozier doesn’t change anything. CG definitely could end up playing 20mpg
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Post by scooter on Jun 8, 2024 9:15:14 GMT -5
I'm guessing you did your fishing in Newfoundland and Labrador. if you made it to Western Canada (not counting BC, obviously), I highly highly doubt you miss -40 with the windchill if you experienced it lol. No I live in Toronto, ON and that's probably the best location for the type of fishing I like. In the epicenter of the great lakes but still in the urban area for everything else. I experienced -40C maybe once in my life but I wish we had at least 10-15 of those days a year This past winter I don't remember single day below -10C. Maybe there was a day or 2 it's just that I don't remember. I even hate skiing when the temperature is higher than -10C My wife has been to the Toronto area a couple of times for get togethers for a craft hobby she has. She has several friends there and elsewhere in eastern Canada. I’ve heard nothing but good things about Toronto and the culture there, although I reckon that it’s become quite expensive due to the thriving economy in recent decades.
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Post by scooter on Jun 8, 2024 9:22:52 GMT -5
Yada, yada, yada. Gillespie isn’t going to be a 20+ minute/game player in the NBA. He turns 25 in a couple of weeks, so “wait a few years” is a really unimpressive argument. I know some folks here are fans, but I am pretty confident he’s at most a fringe NBA player. If you grade out his abilities, they range from bad to decent. He’s not more than a poor man’s Monte Morris. We know what Morris is, and he’s definitely not a starter “for many teams.” For the Nuggets, he’d be an upgrade from our current backup PG situation to be sure and I’d enthusiastically welcome him back to the Nuggets. But he’s a good backup PG, not a starter. He was definitely a draft win, though. Cancar has been a decent depth guy, but nothing remotely close to a starting quality player. Woulda coulda shoulda on Dozier doesn’t change anything. CG definitely could end up playing 20mpg I have not seen enough to know for sure, but the Nuggets don’t think he’s a rotation player on a contending team. Some fans want to comp him to the likes of TJ McConnell — I think because they are both white — but McConnell is quick and strong despite being small, like Beverly without the crazy, and I believe the impression he’s made with the Nuggets is that Gillespie isn’t that kind of athlete. I think he’s more like Monte Morris — shooting is his best attribute — but not quite as good at anything.
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Post by GBG on Jun 8, 2024 9:48:13 GMT -5
CG definitely could end up playing 20mpg I have not seen enough to know for sure, but the Nuggets don’t think he’s a rotation player on a contending team. Some fans want to comp him to the likes of TJ McConnell — I think because they are both white — but McConnell is quick and strong despite being small, like Beverly without the crazy, and I believe the impression he’s made with the Nuggets is that Gillespie isn’t that kind of athlete. I think he’s more like Monte Morris — shooting is his best attribute — but not quite as good at anything. As you say, you don’t know much about him, having never watched him. Famicommander watched him a lot, and while he’s opinionated and can be wrong, he liked what he saw in G-League games. He was getting 10 rebounds a game for a lot of his time there, if I’m not mistaken. Sign of toughness and physicality for a 6’2” guy coming off a year of recovery from a horrible leg fracture. He had one excellent game with the Nuggets too. The TJ comparison isn’t just that he’s a smaller white guard. It’s that he’s a winner from a top college program, and both went undrafted. Facially, there’s a bit of resemblance too. CG received college accolades, and so did TJ. They both apparently are very hard workers and underdogs at the NBA level. Like TJ, I think CG can be a really good backup PG in the NBA.
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Post by scooter on Jun 8, 2024 10:01:18 GMT -5
Since 2017: Hartenstein Monte Morris Jared Vanderbilt Torrey Craig Vlatko Cancar Bones Hyland (?) Christian Braun Peyton Watson Julian Strawther Math shakes out to more than one quality role player per year. And Watson is a major hit - Strawther will be a quality role player. This doesn’t even include what Pickett or Tyson could become. I don’t think the management is the issue with the bench. The nuggets have managed to find some decent players on cheap contracts. The problem is malone. Malone runs our starters into the ground. Even when we had Monte, the bench was garbage - why? Hartenstein was a 2nd round pick (out of Europe) of the Rockets at age 19. After a couple of seasons in their organization, he was waived and the Nuggets picked him off the free agent scrap heap. Since 2014, management in fact has done a relatively lousy job of getting talent out of non-lottery first round picks, 2nd round picks, and the undrafted free agent market out of college and the international market. We’re at 9 years and running without finding a single future NBA starter (or really even “good playoff bench player” except for Braun and Morris) outside of the lottery, and that’s bad. Sure they’ve found a few limited bench players in Morris, Craig, Braun, Watson, Cancar and the like, but the NBA has plenty of really good starters — and many all-stars — who were not lottery picks. In 2014, the Nuggets got the steal of all time in Jokic, but since then, no big personnel wins in the summer (outside of the trade market) and a lot of washouts. Obviously, Watson and maybe Braun could still develop into starters, and we have no idea about Strawther yet. But the Nuggets’ scouting department had a run of really bad summers from 2015 to 2021: 7th pick Mudiay and 15th pick Juancho busted out of the league within a few years; 19th pick Beasley kinda sucks; busts in the 20’s like Lydon and Hampton and Nnaji; Bones has talent but turned into Boneshead; drafting a bunch of low talent guys in the 2nd round; failing to identify/recruit/sign the undrafted free agent likes of Reid, Strus, Robinson, Hauser, Van Vleet, Reaves, ingles, Vincent, etc. Remember the years gone by when Nuggets’ fans pined for the now fairly washed Robert Covington? He went undrafted in 2013. The Nuggets have never gotten these guys. Malone has been forced to work with a team that doesn’t have depth of talent. How many “good shooters” — I mean proven to be good shooters in the NBA — has Malone had on his bench in recent years? Its true Malone runs his starters into the ground but he just hasn’t had much talent when he looks down the bench, and that’s been the fault of the FO and over quite a long period of time now.
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Post by scooter on Jun 8, 2024 10:05:51 GMT -5
Like TJ, I think CG can be a really good backup PG in the NBA. Have you seen any evidence that Gillespie is a major defensive pest like McConnell — the kind of guy starting PGs — Curry and Halliburton and Brunson and Fox and Murray and the like — hate playing against because he’s all over them like white on rice for 60 feet up the court? I haven’t seen a single second of that from Gillespie.
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Post by passtheballquick on Jun 8, 2024 14:17:44 GMT -5
No I live in Toronto, ON and that's probably the best location for the type of fishing I like. In the epicenter of the great lakes but still in the urban area for everything else. I experienced -40C maybe once in my life but I wish we had at least 10-15 of those days a year This past winter I don't remember single day below -10C. Maybe there was a day or 2 it's just that I don't remember. I even hate skiing when the temperature is higher than -10C My wife has been to the Toronto area a couple of times for get togethers for a craft hobby she has. She has several friends there and elsewhere in eastern Canada. I’ve heard nothing but good things about Toronto and the culture there, although I reckon that it’s become quite expensive due to the thriving economy in recent decades. I think life in general is getting more expensive in the entire world. Real estate went considerably up but that's either good or bad depending from which side you're looking at it. The rest is more or less like in the USA. The difference between dollars is not favoring individuals but it's good for the economy. Again either good or bad depending how you look at it. In general the things are still good and I hope it stays like that but who knows
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Post by JB on Jun 8, 2024 14:58:49 GMT -5
the price of a home in Canada is criminally and unusually high.
a main reason why is our boomer friends who bought a home in the 80s for 150k enjoy having a million dollar asset today and want the racket to continue at the expense of the younger generation.
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Post by GBG on Jun 8, 2024 15:18:11 GMT -5
Like TJ, I think CG can be a really good backup PG in the NBA. Have you seen any evidence that Gillespie is a major defensive pest like McConnell — the kind of guy starting PGs — Curry and Halliburton and Brunson and Fox and Murray and the like — hate playing against because he’s all over them like white on rice for 60 feet up the court? I haven’t seen a single second of that from Gillespie. I don’t know how you can have an opinion on CG, one way or another, having never or rarely watched him play. It seems like you are assuming he’s another Facu at best, and you don’t know that. I don’t know anything either, but liked what I saw in the couple games where he got a chance with Jokic. He can play, IMO, due to his Villanova pedigree and being tough as nails in coming back from horrific leg fracture. We shall see, as I already wrote. But I have no reason to believe he can’t prove himself. Booth kept him all of 2022/23 and 2023/24. He seems to see something in him.
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Post by passtheballquick on Jun 8, 2024 17:05:02 GMT -5
the price of a home in Canada is criminally and unusually high. a main reason why is our boomer friends who bought a home in the 80s for 150k enjoy having a million dollar asset today and want the racket to continue at the expense of the younger generation. Only people that are planning to move out of Canada and live somewhere else (like in USA) want the racket to continue. Nobody sane wants it as the higher home prices bring higher property taxes and many other things that make our lives more expensive but unfortunately I don't see any changes soon with the current immigration policy
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Post by nuggetshipster on Jun 9, 2024 5:39:19 GMT -5
CG definitely could end up playing 20mpg I have not seen enough to know for sure, but the Nuggets don’t think he’s a rotation player on a contending team. Some fans want to comp him to the likes of TJ McConnell — I think because they are both white — but McConnell is quick and strong despite being small, like Beverly without the crazy, and I believe the impression he’s made with the Nuggets is that Gillespie isn’t that kind of athlete. I think he’s more like Monte Morris — shooting is his best attribute — but not quite as good at anything. He was injured breh, he was willing to accept a two way Malone stil prefered CG to Pickett. Even at 80% health Not sure what you expected. CG is healthy now, and Im buying stock. Only time will tell and i love a good victory lap
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Post by nuggetshipster on Jun 9, 2024 5:41:22 GMT -5
I have not seen enough to know for sure, but the Nuggets don’t think he’s a rotation player on a contending team. Some fans want to comp him to the likes of TJ McConnell — I think because they are both white — but McConnell is quick and strong despite being small, like Beverly without the crazy, and I believe the impression he’s made with the Nuggets is that Gillespie isn’t that kind of athlete. I think he’s more like Monte Morris — shooting is his best attribute — but not quite as good at anything. As you say, you don’t know much about him, having never watched him. Famicommander watched him a lot, and while he’s opinionated and can be wrong, he liked what he saw in G-League games. He was getting 10 rebounds a game for a lot of his time there, if I’m not mistaken. Sign of toughness and physicality for a 6’2” guy coming off a year of recovery from a horrible leg fracture. He had one excellent game with the Nuggets too. The TJ comparison isn’t just that he’s a smaller white guard. It’s that he’s a winner from a top college program, and both went undrafted. Facially, there’s a bit of resemblance too. CG received college accolades, and so did TJ. They both apparently are very hard workers and underdogs at the NBA level. Like TJ, I think CG can be a really good backup PG in the NBA. Monte Morris comp to a guy almost average 10 rpg in gleague is legit funny
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