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Post by inyourmind on Jun 18, 2024 14:55:09 GMT -5
like I alluded to earlier, players of Tatum and Brown's caliber are "attainable" second-tier stars for the Nuggets post-Jokic, because we're not striking gold again (no pun intended). we should be very happy of the precedent being set. this is arguably the first time in 2 freaking decades a team without a top 6 superduperstar won a championship. Could argue the '14 Spurs. An aging Duncan/Parker and Leonard and had yet to fully break out. Think he did like 18/6/2 in the Finals as his coming out party. 14/7/2 for the entire run. None of those 3 would be ranked top 6 in the league headed into the finals. I agree Tatum/Brown's are attainable tho. Tatum is basically a more more athletic/well rounded Melo who's less skilled as a scorer. Similar flaws in the playoffs with inefficient scoring. If you forced a Nuggets comparison I'd say a rich man's '09 team. If Melo/Billups had much better support. I'd say Brown/Tatum are more impactful. Brown especially compared to Billups.
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Post by JB on Jun 18, 2024 15:18:32 GMT -5
DWhite is getting extended at 25m per year at the minimum.
the Celtics problem is solving itself.
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Post by scooter on Jun 18, 2024 18:16:51 GMT -5
Boston will be the favorite again next year. BS knows what he's doing and JM is doing exactly what he's told to do. Although I had a huge respect for Brad Stevens I respect him even more now. Looking at relationship between Booth and Malone, I understand why BS went with no names of Ime Udoka and now Joe Mozzila as Boston coaches The situation with Stevens moving from HC to President and apparently getting HC hiring authority is uncommon; sure as of today it seems to be working well but time will tell. I do admire Stevens for going all in on a 5 out system that is difficult to pull off. But like the Draymond/Steph/Klay Warriors’ system, it ain’t easy to put and keep together a team that can do it. Stevens did the same thing the Nuggets did in acquiring Gordon and KCP for little cost — take advantage of teams heading into tankville to mine guys who turn the team into a champion. It was really Porzingis who was the Celtics best player this season — they kicked ass in the vast majority of the minutes with KP on the court. The big question going forward is a little like the 76ers’ situation with Embiid — can Porzingis play in both the regular season and the playoffs? We’ll see.
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Post by wizardofcozz on Jun 18, 2024 19:21:14 GMT -5
DWhite is getting extended at 25m per year at the minimum. the Celtics problem is solving itself. There issue is that moving above the 2nd apron will lock them in. Making all contracts almost untradeable. If Horford and Porzongis go down they won't be able to fix that situation. Horford is almost 40 and Jrue isn't getting nay younger. While they weathered the Porzingis injury this year it is gong to become harder each successive season.
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Post by passtheballquick on Jun 19, 2024 8:42:25 GMT -5
Boston will be the favorite again next year. BS knows what he's doing and JM is doing exactly what he's told to do. Although I had a huge respect for Brad Stevens I respect him even more now. Looking at relationship between Booth and Malone, I understand why BS went with no names of Ime Udoka and now Joe Mozzila as Boston coaches The situation with Stevens moving from HC to President and apparently getting HC hiring authority is uncommon; sure as of today it seems to be working well but time will tell. I do admire Stevens for going all in on a 5 out system that is difficult to pull off. But like the Draymond/Steph/Klay Warriors’ system, it ain’t easy to put and keep together a team that can do it. Stevens did the same thing the Nuggets did in acquiring Gordon and KCP for little cost — take advantage of teams heading into tankville to mine guys who turn the team into a champion. It was really Porzingis who was the Celtics best player this season — they kicked ass in the vast majority of the minutes with KP on the court. The big question going forward is a little like the 76ers’ situation with Embiid — can Porzingis play in both the regular season and the playoffs? We’ll see. If they can afford it I wouldn't even play Porzingis more than 20 games during the regular season, just to keep him in shape. He doesn't even need to play in all PO games to be honest. All they need from him is to be healthy in the last 2 series and maybe a few extra games in the first 2 rounds only if the things don't go well. They did excellent thing with not rushing him against Peacers and he just knocked down Dallas in the first 2 games making the series literally over
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Post by scooter on Jun 19, 2024 10:25:52 GMT -5
There issue is that moving above the 2nd apron will lock them in. Making all contracts almost untradeable. If Horford and Porzongis go down they won't be able to fix that situation. Horford is almost 40 and Jrue isn't getting nay younger. While they weathered the Porzingis injury this year it is gong to become harder each successive season. Tillman is the type of proven veteran bench player the Nuggets passed on by rostering so many baby players this season, though. IMO, on a contending team, when an injury or foul trouble or whatever requires the coach to look a bit further down the bench, he should see a few of those guys (Justin Holiday was fine for this as well) and not a small army of Jalen Picketts.
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Post by GBG on Jun 19, 2024 10:46:36 GMT -5
There issue is that moving above the 2nd apron will lock them in. Making all contracts almost untradeable. If Horford and Porzongis go down they won't be able to fix that situation. Horford is almost 40 and Jrue isn't getting nay younger. While they weathered the Porzingis injury this year it is gong to become harder each successive season. Tillman is the type of proven veteran bench player the Nuggets passed on by rostering so many baby players this season, though. IMO, on a contending team, when an injury or foul trouble or whatever requires the coach to look a bit further down the bench, he should see a few of those guys (Justin Holiday was fine for this as well) and not a small army of Jalen Picketts. The major flaw with Booth a year ago was drafting a couple old rookies in second round and then handing them both three-year standard NBA contracts. Roster spots are precious, as we’ve learned, and to not place at least one of Tyson/Pickett on a 2-way deal (as TC did with Monte Morris) was front office hubris. Of course, he didn’t know about the Cancar injury at the time, so I doubt he would have done it if he had known. But it was his biggest error.
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Post by scooter on Jun 19, 2024 10:58:03 GMT -5
If they can afford it I wouldn't even play Porzingis more than 20 games during the regular season, just to keep him in shape. He doesn't even need to play in all PO games to be honest. All they need from him is to be healthy in the last 2 series and maybe a few extra games in the first 2 rounds only if the things don't go well. They did excellent thing with not rushing him against Peacers and he just knocked down Dallas in the first 2 games making the series literally over Players do want to make money (and get honors and awards and such), so no coaches don’t have the option of resting a potential allstar for half+ of the season, even in the eastern conference where a team can make the playoffs just by not being one of the worst teams in the league.
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Post by scooter on Jun 19, 2024 11:30:25 GMT -5
Tillman is the type of proven veteran bench player the Nuggets passed on by rostering so many baby players this season, though. IMO, on a contending team, when an injury or foul trouble or whatever requires the coach to look a bit further down the bench, he should see a few of those guys (Justin Holiday was fine for this as well) and not a small army of Jalen Picketts. The major flaw with Booth a year ago was drafting a couple old rookies in second round and then handing them both three-year standard NBA contracts. Roster spots are precious, as we’ve learned, and to not place at least one of Tyson/Pickett on a 2-way deal (as TC did with Monte Morris) was front office hubris.. The “2nd round pick exception” to the cap requires either a 2+1 or 3+1 contract. 2nd rounders also don’t have to sign 2-way contracts, although it seems likely that Pickett and/or Tyson would have. The thing is, they’d be free agents at the end of the season unless their contract was converted to a roster contract during the season. The Nuggets’ FO did know the rules and just really wanted to make a bet that Tyson or Pickett would be good and would turn out to be good bargain contract players. The bigger mistake, IMO, was just the Nnaji contract. I knew he wasn’t any good (and brings kinda bad vibes as well as even he doesn’t really think he’s going to be good in the NBA), so how could the FO not know. His expiring contract could have been traded, either for some other short term minimum type guy, or for some future 2nd rounder. Now his contract has negative value and has to be attached to a real asset to get back something other than a bad contract the Nuggets definitely don’t want.
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Post by GBG on Jun 19, 2024 13:16:38 GMT -5
The major flaw with Booth a year ago was drafting a couple old rookies in second round and then handing them both three-year standard NBA contracts. Roster spots are precious, as we’ve learned, and to not place at least one of Tyson/Pickett on a 2-way deal (as TC did with Monte Morris) was front office hubris.. The bigger mistake, IMO, was just the Nnaji contract. I knew he wasn’t any good (and brings kinda bad vibes as well as even he doesn’t really think he’s going to be good in the NBA), so how could the FO not know. His expiring contract could have been traded, either for some other short term minimum type guy, or for some future 2nd rounder. Now his contract has negative value and has to be attached to a real asset to get back something other than a bad contract the Nuggets definitely don’t want. This seems to me to be kind of a passive-aggressive cheap shot at Zeke. How can you know about the vibes with him or around him? Malone clearly agrees with you that he can’t play, and thus disagreed with Booth handing him the extension. But we don’t know anything other than Zeke pressed when given his playing time on a short leash, and APPEARED to lose confidence in his game. It’s hard to play, let alone play as a 23 year-old big worried about making one mistake and having coach yank you from the floor, never to appear in the game that night. That’s no way for a guy to grow and develop, so instead Zeke shrank and regressed. Per-36, in his worst season, Zeke still averaged 12/8 with 2 assists, 1 steal, and 2.4 blocks. What is it about a four year declining $ contract starting at $8.9 million, then $8.2, $7.5, and $7.5 million that is so negative that it can’t be moved unless for another bad contract? He’s 23, the cap will rise 10% per year for many seasons with new TV money, and teams have to spend at 90% of cap due to salary floor. That means that by the final couple years of his contract, Zeke will be paid what amounts to a taxpayer MLE or less at that time when he will be 25 or 26. If he can be traded to a bad team like Charlotte or Washington, he certainly could see his PT increase, and his confidence should increase along with it. Zeke has a career WS/48 of .109 and is 23. Some lottery team will trade for him, play him a lot, and if nothing else, he can help command a tank. There aren’t enough good players in the league to justify the spending that MUST occur at 90%+ of the cap for all 30 teams. Maybe 32 by his final year of contract. I don’t see it the way you do. At all. This contract can and will be moved to enable us to get someone to help us, either from the trade directly, or as a result of flexibility that the trade might enable. Either that or we keep Zeke and Malone commits to playing him more and he gets better. Your declaring Zeke can’t play in this league is just taking Malone’s word for it, essentially. And we’ve seen how credible Malone is regarding using backup bigs in the past. Except for Jokic, it’s not a good coaching track record.
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Post by passtheballquick on Jun 19, 2024 13:20:11 GMT -5
If they can afford it I wouldn't even play Porzingis more than 20 games during the regular season, just to keep him in shape. He doesn't even need to play in all PO games to be honest. All they need from him is to be healthy in the last 2 series and maybe a few extra games in the first 2 rounds only if the things don't go well. They did excellent thing with not rushing him against Peacers and he just knocked down Dallas in the first 2 games making the series literally over Players do want to make money (and get honors and awards and such), so no coaches don’t have the option of resting a potential allstar for half+ of the season, even in the eastern conference where a team can make the playoffs just by not being one of the worst teams in the league. 100% agree on that but Porzingis may be the only one that doesn't fit that rule. Both, Boston and Porzingis know that he's shot with injuries and he actually can get more money by contributing to championships than winning meaningless games in RS Actually Embiid might be the second one. They're both more than capable of winning finals mvp (biggest award) and neither will ever sniff it if not treated differently. Also a year of rest for body recovery would be difficult to reject for both of them
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Post by scooter on Jun 19, 2024 15:55:10 GMT -5
This seems to me to be kind of a passive-aggressive cheap shot at Zeke. Not straight aggressive enough? OK, he sucks. How can you know about the vibes with him or around him? I’ve seen his hangdog look on the bench for 4 years. How is that not enough? He has a tough time mustering enthusiasm when the team wins a championship. Malone clearly agrees with you that he can’t play, and thus disagreed with Booth handing him the extension. But we don’t know anything other than Zeke pressed when given his playing time on a short leash, and APPEARED to lose confidence in his game. It’s hard to play, let alone play as a 23 year-old big worried about making one mistake and having coach yank you from the floor, never to appear in the game that night. That’s no way for a guy to grow and develop, so instead Zeke shrank and regressed. Awww, I feel so bad for the guy with the $28 mil in guaranteed money. Not knowing where your next meal is coming from (except for the $28 mil) really takes a toll on one’s mental health. Enough of this. I expect the team will find a taker for him and his contract and give him a fresh start somewhere else. I don’t expect him to blossom into any kind of big time player, because I don’t think he has that much talent.
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Post by GBG on Jun 19, 2024 17:06:15 GMT -5
This seems to me to be kind of a passive-aggressive cheap shot at Zeke. Not straight aggressive enough? OK, he sucks. How can you know about the vibes with him or around him? I’ve seen his hangdog look on the bench for 4 years. How is that not enough? He has a tough time mustering enthusiasm when the team wins a championship. Malone clearly agrees with you that he can’t play, and thus disagreed with Booth handing him the extension. But we don’t know anything other than Zeke pressed when given his playing time on a short leash, and APPEARED to lose confidence in his game. It’s hard to play, let alone play as a 23 year-old big worried about making one mistake and having coach yank you from the floor, never to appear in the game that night. That’s no way for a guy to grow and develop, so instead Zeke shrank and regressed. Awww, I feel so bad for the guy with the $28 mil in guaranteed money. Not knowing where your next meal is coming from (except for the $28 mil) really takes a toll on one’s mental health. Enough of this. I expect the team will find a taker for him and his contract and give him a fresh start somewhere else. I don’t expect him to blossom into any kind of big time player, because I don’t think he has that much talent. Your entire reply seems rather snarky and unlike you. Having a bad day? Week? I sure have with the loss of my childhood hero, Willie Mays, but that’s beside the point. Zeke doesn’t have to grow into a “big time player” to justify the $28 million. Just being a better version of himself that we saw glimpses of in 2022 before injury would be enough. And I still think Zeke could develop on a bad team that gives him playing time into being a decent role player. Guess what? Decent role players will be making more than $7.5 million in 2026 and 2027. So much money sloshing around the NBA that somebody has to be a beneficiary of the CBA 90% of cap largesse. Zeke doesn’t worry about his next meal, but you seem to resent his lack of development, given the money he was handed by Booth during the season. I never begrudge a professional athlete for getting paid silly money. It’s not my money, it’s WalMart money. I do think it’s unfair to blame a player for lack of development on that money that is coming his way. Just seems like another cheap shot to me at a player your clearly absolutely, from your comments, hate with a passion.
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Post by Ring on Jun 20, 2024 9:28:12 GMT -5
Yeah I don't know...I think Zeke is a good teammate. I've never noticed anything negative about him on the bench. His numbers defensively were really good last year too. Pretty sure he had an elite % defensively at the rim. Zeke is unfortunately just one of those guys that is too small to be a 5 and not skilled enough to be a 4. I genuinely believe if he never changed his shot he would be an NBA rotation player.
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Post by wizardofcozz on Jun 20, 2024 9:43:10 GMT -5
Yeah I don't know...I think Zeke is a good teammate. I've never noticed anything negative about him on the bench. His numbers defensively were really good last year too. Pretty sure he had an elite % defensively at the rim. Zeke is unfortunately just one of those guys that is too small to be a 5 and not skilled enough to be a 4. I genuinely believe if he never changed his shot he would be an NBA rotation player. Im guessing Vlatko will get alot of the backup 4 minutes assuming he's healthy. He played almost 15 mpg in our championship season. Considering our bench now. I could totally see him getting 18 mpg off the bench. That in itself makes Zeke completely useless to the Nuggets. If we can somehow turn Reggie and Zekes contracts into a useful combo guard who can get to the rim and create id be ecstatic.
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Post by wizardofcozz on Jun 20, 2024 9:49:23 GMT -5
I'm still not sure what happens with KCP. I say keep him and go into the apron for at least another year, we can always move him later. My most realistic view of what happens for the Nuggets is that, issue is once that happens we can't aggregate salary in trades which sucks. Im guessing we draft a big in the draft which Malone won't play, but so be it. Can we somehow trade Reggie and Zeke individually and attach possibly a 2nd rounder to get something better? Maybe Misic from CHA or Kris Dunn??? If KCP leaves I'm all for packaging zeke and Reggie and picks or a combination of some of the younger guys to get Bogdan. But thats probsbly a pipe dream. I just know watching BOS this year, and what we had last year with Brown that its impossible to win a title with 1.5 shot creators on team.
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Post by scooter on Jun 20, 2024 11:19:26 GMT -5
Yeah I don't know...I think Zeke is a good teammate. I've never noticed anything negative about him on the bench. His numbers defensively were really good last year too. Pretty sure he had an elite % defensively at the rim. Zeke is unfortunately just one of those guys that is too small to be a 5 and not skilled enough to be a 4. I genuinely believe if he never changed his shot he would be an NBA rotation player. I’m not so sure about the latter as we only saw a very small sample size of shooting and the actual team — players and coaches — never seemed to have as much confidence in Nnaji as a shooter as fans who saw him shoot what amounted to a handful of face up shots in open catch and shoot situations. Stuck in my head is the vision of him shooting 7 for 36 overall (112 minutes of run) against summer league competition AFTER a full year of NBA experience. I’m pretty sure that was the worst summer league performance I have ever seen for a guy who had already banked a full year of NBA experience. Summer league doesn’t tell you a guy will be a good NBA player but it provides some evidence as to whether a guy is a “hooper.” Nnaji is just the opposite of a hooper. The Nuggets kept desperately hoping he could be a system player — put him in an organized system, with good players and well coached and practiced sets and such and maybe he’ll be useful — but so far it turns out he’s just not good at basketball. You hit the nail on the head with the “too small to be a 5 and not skilled enough to be a 4.” I’ll add to the “too small” that he’s not a good enough natural athlete to compensate. Or to develop NBA level forward skills. He also doesn’t have a good feel for the game. When it comes to processing the game, he seems to be as mechanical mentally as he is physically. He’s thinking hard but not reacting instinctually or reading the court and game as a natural athlete. I haven’t noticed anything horribly negative about his demeanor but neither have I noticed anything too positive. He’s been on the team for 4 years and just seems to blend in with the scenery. I think he’s an introvert at heart and that’s not helpful for a guy with marginal talent. TJ McConnell has marginal talent by NBA standards but right from his start in the league he earned a lot of PT (20 minutes/game his rookie season) just by playing harder, and playing smart, and being a great dirty work player. If the FO can turn this lemonade into lemons, I’ll applaud lustily.
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Post by GBG on Jun 20, 2024 11:39:43 GMT -5
Yeah I don't know...I think Zeke is a good teammate. I've never noticed anything negative about him on the bench. His numbers defensively were really good last year too. Pretty sure he had an elite % defensively at the rim. Zeke is unfortunately just one of those guys that is too small to be a 5 and not skilled enough to be a 4. I genuinely believe if he never changed his shot he would be an NBA rotation player. Some other team will fix his shot, and give him PT to restore confidence in it. But you’re right, Zeke is probably just a tweener for the NBA.
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Post by famicommander on Jun 20, 2024 11:54:39 GMT -5
Some other team will give him more PT based on what?
The Nuggets tried their hardest the last two years to hand him 2C minutes and he fumbled them repeatedly. You have a ridiculously unreasonable amount of faith in this guy.
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Post by GBG on Jun 20, 2024 12:20:53 GMT -5
Some other team will give him more PT based on what? The Nuggets tried their hardest the last two years to hand him 2C minutes and he fumbled them repeatedly. You have a ridiculously unreasonable amount of faith in this guy. He isn’t a particularly good backup 4, but definitely not a backup 5. As he enters his ages 24-27 seasons, though, on a bad team he can get playing time and average perhaps 20 mpg as a switchable defensive 4 with a fixed shot, as a best case scenario. His defense is good. He blocked 2.4 shots per-36 last season. Has a career WS/48 over .1. How you and scooter can completely write off a guy who played 576 minutes last season is beyond me. You two are basically saying the guy who wouldn’t play and forced a trade of Hartenstein was correct to judge that Zeke can’t play either. I don’t believe Malone, and you shouldn’t either.
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