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Post by GBG on Jan 10, 2017 0:19:21 GMT -5
We'd be in the 8th seed position now if Malone wasn't such an inept 4th quarter coach. I think we have four losses that would have been wins with just an average in game coach getting us to the finish line. That would make us 18-19 instead of 14-23. There are two or three other games that could have been wins but we just didn't have the horsepower or defense to make it happen. We have had NO wins that were stolen late after being behind most of the game. We never come from behind late to win.
That's why I think this is a near .500 team, talent-wise, disguised as a 14-23 team. Hunt or Karl or MDA would have been good enough to get us near, to, or over .500 at this point. Michael Malone is not. I see him as another Jeff Bzdelik. Just another likeable guy who can't coach in games.
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Post by JB on Jan 10, 2017 0:28:57 GMT -5
We'd be in the 8th seed position now if Malone wasn't such an inept 4th quarter coach. I think we have four losses that would have been wins with just an average in game coach getting us to the finish line. That would make us 18-19 instead of 14-23. There are two or three other games that could have been wins but we just didn't have the horsepower or defense to make it happen. We have had NO wins that were stolen late after being behind most of the game. We never come from behind late to win. That's why I think this is a near .500 team, talent-wise, disguised as a 14-23 team. Hunt or Karl or MDA would have been good enough to get us near, to, or over .500 at this point. Michael Malone is not. I see him as another Jeff Bzdelick. like I said previously, making the "we're not good enough to go far in the playoffs" argument is perfectly fine and legitimate. but to say Malone and Shaw were hamstrung by a group of quitters and malcontents is absurd. there's actual evidence that Gallo/Chandler/Faried were key pieces on playoff teams. is there ANY EVIDENCE that those two are qualified to coach in the NBA? |
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Post by game on Jan 10, 2017 1:32:42 GMT -5
At some point it just gets comical. Don't pull anything reaching so far for player excuses, gentlemen. You'd think Gallo/Faried/Chandler got here a month ago with all of the excuses. But your mind is made up that Malone sucks, so logic disappears and you'll give the players ridiculous passes and make baseless statements about where the coach has single handedly cost us x spots in the standings. Just like you did with the last coach. My god, a real coach would have us in the 8 seed. Still a losing record, but the 8 SEED!!!!!! That's your justification for Malone being so awful? The difference between the 10 seed and 8 seed.
Man, their feelings must be hurt because they may get traded. How could we possibly expect them to still play hard? Damn you, Malone, for putting them in this position.
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Post by blackhill on Jan 10, 2017 2:24:50 GMT -5
yes, damn you, Malone. Damn you to hell for ruining the Nuggets.
cut Jameer
can you say Coach Mutumbo? I know somebody with a dozen middle names who can, in a dozen languages.
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Post by Coach Sticky on Jan 10, 2017 2:39:37 GMT -5
How can you even hear what Dikembe would say from the bench?!
Oh yeah I realized we don't have fans in the crowd anyways
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Post by blackhill on Jan 10, 2017 2:50:10 GMT -5
no need to hear - he has the finger wag.
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Post by Coach Sticky on Jan 10, 2017 2:58:59 GMT -5
Hahahaha DONT DO THATEMMANUEL (Mutombo voice)
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Post by nuggetshipster on Jan 10, 2017 10:23:39 GMT -5
Anyone who is picking Malone over our players is a f***ing dumbass. Seriously. f***ing dumbass. Any fan that think they know for a fact that their opinion is right is a f***ing dumbass |
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Post by nuggetshipster on Jan 10, 2017 10:26:35 GMT -5
I'm not making an argument why Malone is great. I'm making an argument for addressing the players who avoid accountability like the plague. That's not going to change just because you fire the coach. The same culture that has young guys coming in and being told Denver is boring, so you'll be forced to focus on hoops. Jameer Nelson and Mike Miller are the guys trying to actively lead and bring the team together. Both are over 5 years out of their prime, and one doesn't play at all. That doesn't work. I 100% believe Malone when he says the only guys speaking up are two of the young guys, because it's consistent with what we've seen with these guys for years, and that's a f***ing embarrassment. The 57 win team at least had Iguodala, who is a douche, but is accountable. So... fire the coach if you'd like, but I'm not doing it until I've addressed the locker room. I'm not bringing a new coach into the same mess as the last two and expecting a different results. Spoiler alert: these guys quit and have effort that's inconsistent, and the young guys look to the vets on how to act. No thanks. just answer this one question: would we be having this debate if Josh Kroenke was smart enough to hire Mike Dantoni or Melvin Hunt. a simple yes or no will suffice. melvin hunt is a s**t head coach choice. That's why no team has ever given him a legit chance Easy being on the Mike D wagon this year. I personally want my coach to value defense, even if he or the player can't execute it. We need the players to be a defensive team. And with no Nurk, then we need to make a bit more changes than I had hoped |
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Post by Coach Sticky on Jan 10, 2017 10:42:04 GMT -5
Defense will save you on the nights where your offense isn't clicking. That's why I value defense a ton more than offense... if you play great defense you will score off your defense.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2017 11:01:29 GMT -5
Honestly, I think a problem exists in many areas of this franchise.
- Malone is a bad coach
- The core of Gallo/Chandler/Faried is overrated and probably one of the worst cores on an NBA team in the last 3 to 4 seasons (Other teams have stars or youth with a hopeful future)
- TC has drafted well, but hasn't landed the "it" player that he tells the media he wants to get
- Is Joshie just a puppet who manages money for daddy and KSE or does he want to win?
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Post by GBG on Jan 10, 2017 12:00:43 GMT -5
At some point it just gets comical. Don't pull anything reaching so far for player excuses, gentlemen. You'd think Gallo/Faried/Chandler got here a month ago with all of the excuses. But your mind is made up that Malone sucks, so logic disappears and you'll give the players ridiculous passes and make baseless statements about where the coach has single handedly cost us x spots in the standings. Just like you did with the last coach. My god, a real coach would have us in the 8 seed. Still a losing record, but the 8 SEED!!!!!! That's your justification for Malone being so awful? The difference between the 10 seed and 8 seed. Man, their feelings must be hurt because they may get traded. How could we possibly expect them to still play hard? Damn you, Malone, for putting them in this position. Who's making excuses for the players? This isn't an "either/or" situation. It's not the case that either Malone sucks and the roster we have is fine, or Malone is fine and the players making up our core are dogs. As T just pointed out (as have I), our weaknesses are multifaceted. We have an inferior coach and inferior core of vets. Inferior to what? To the better playoff teams in the NBA, that's what. You don't have to attack people who strongly make case against Malone, or against players. And it's only human nature to not give 100% on defense because you a) aren't clear about the role you have, b) are confused by the schemes coach is running, c) think you may get dealt soon and don't want to get hurt. If a team is not buying in to what the coach is saying, you can see the results in terms of lack of cohesive effort on defense and players having their separate agendas. No need to be sarcastic or snarky about this point. |
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Post by altitudesickness on Jan 10, 2017 12:33:32 GMT -5
Rofl. Without sarcasm or snark this forum would be a barren wasteland.
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Post by game on Jan 10, 2017 12:45:28 GMT -5
At some point it just gets comical. Don't pull anything reaching so far for player excuses, gentlemen. You'd think Gallo/Faried/Chandler got here a month ago with all of the excuses. But your mind is made up that Malone sucks, so logic disappears and you'll give the players ridiculous passes and make baseless statements about where the coach has single handedly cost us x spots in the standings. Just like you did with the last coach. My god, a real coach would have us in the 8 seed. Still a losing record, but the 8 SEED!!!!!! That's your justification for Malone being so awful? The difference between the 10 seed and 8 seed. Man, their feelings must be hurt because they may get traded. How could we possibly expect them to still play hard? Damn you, Malone, for putting them in this position. Who's making excuses for the players? This isn't an "either/or" situation. It's not the case that either Malone sucks and the roster we have is fine, or Malone is fine and the players making up our core are dogs. As T just pointed out (as have I), our weaknesses are multifaceted. We have an inferior coach and inferior core of vets. Inferior to what? To the better playoff teams in the NBA, that's what. You don't have to attack people who strongly make case against Malone, or against players. And it's only human nature to not give 100% on defense because you a) aren't clear about the role you have, b) are confused by the schemes coach is running, c) think you may get dealt soon and don't want to get hurt. If a team is not buying in to what the coach is saying, you can see the results in terms of lack of cohesive effort on defense and players having their separate agendas. No need to be sarcastic or snarky about this point. There are actually a whole slew of player excuses on the last few pages ranging from how they're worried they'll be traded to injuries to fatigue to variable minutes to how they're not bad guys, so stop blaming them. This whole thread is based on blaming Malone. You added some excuses. They're not hard to find, brother. You just have to read the posts. I challenged the idea that Malone is some type of singular point of failure (have repeatedly said Malone could be the wrong guy, but the issues are much larger than Malone). I think the roster is a much larger problem, but as is the case with most fans who call into talk radio, firing the coach is the easy solution every time, otherwise it requires admitting much more work to be done. Put another way: if this all sounds fairly familiar with the Shaw years, at what point do we start challenging ourselves a little bit to say "Are Shaw and Malone the two worst coaches ever, or maybe is there something else at work also?" Remember the reaction from Indiana players when Shaw got fired? They called our locker room a bunch of children. I believe said the problem was we had no adults in the room. Everybody laughed it off then because it's easier to dismiss a finger pointed at you (or your team) than consider if there are larger issues than just "man, Shaw is the woooooooorst". I don't think Shaw was a great coach, but perhaps the situation wasn't a good one as well. Plenty of room to look at Gallo/Chandler/Faried as all guys who never quite met their potential, are fairly laid back, and miscast in the role of veteran leaders. They're not bad dudes, but I don't think they're locker room leaders. There's also an argument that all three are kind of underachievers considering where their potential could have been. Faried is the most limited, but even he just hasn't bothered to add a shot even while bigs all over the league do. Three guys who never quite met their potential as your veteran core could easily present problems when you want your young guys to be face of the franchise type players. Isn't that at least a possibility? So, we sign Nelson. Or Miller. Or try to sign Wade or trade for Millsap. All in the name of "we really need better locker room leadership." That's a pretty striking indictment on your three heavy minute veterans. You have a team where you're building around young players, you cannot afford a neutral or negative environment. That was my point. Much of this conversation wasn't with you. You tried to be the formative opinion on Melvin Hunt, so I replied. It sounds like we're closer than ritzy and I are, since you at least acknowledge the roster is a problem. I don't want to hire a new coach into the same situation. So, even if you're going to fire the coach, do yourself a favor, and get rid of the issues that have been consistent through two coaches now. At least give this next coach a fresh start. Re: Hunt, if you want to give him a few extra wins and pop him to .500, have at it. I'm sure you're also doing the same where Malone doesn't deserve blame for losses as long as you're asking for context with a W-L record. More importantly: interim coaches almost always see a bump in production, and very rarely sustain it beyond the rest of that year. It's a small sample size after a team had completely quit. I don't give Melvin Hunt praise for being what the team probably should have been if they didn't quit. A little under. .500 or close to it. Melvin Hunt hasn't sniffed another head coach interview anywhere, either. If people a heck of a lot smarter than all of us thought what he did was as impressive as some on here do, don't you think he would have at least gotten a look? This is a smart forum with highly engaged and passionate fans. We'd have to be with the product we've been dealing with. I'm just challenging myself and the group to be a little better than the talk radio guy who pounds the table for firing the coach or replacing the starting QB as if that's all it takes to fix this thing. If you want to fire the coach, go for it, but we can at least acknowledge several of these problems have existed long before Malone got here. |
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Post by GBG on Jan 10, 2017 13:24:33 GMT -5
I haven't called for Malone's firing in any comment, and think he will last through the 2018 season.
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Post by JB on Jan 10, 2017 15:21:59 GMT -5
Who's making excuses for the players? This isn't an "either/or" situation. It's not the case that either Malone sucks and the roster we have is fine, or Malone is fine and the players making up our core are dogs. As T just pointed out (as have I), our weaknesses are multifaceted. We have an inferior coach and inferior core of vets. Inferior to what? To the better playoff teams in the NBA, that's what. You don't have to attack people who strongly make case against Malone, or against players. And it's only human nature to not give 100% on defense because you a) aren't clear about the role you have, b) are confused by the schemes coach is running, c) think you may get dealt soon and don't want to get hurt. If a team is not buying in to what the coach is saying, you can see the results in terms of lack of cohesive effort on defense and players having their separate agendas. No need to be sarcastic or snarky about this point. There are actually a whole slew of player excuses on the last few pages ranging from how they're worried they'll be traded to injuries to fatigue to variable minutes to how they're not bad guys, so stop blaming them. This whole thread is based on blaming Malone. You added some excuses. They're not hard to find, brother. You just have to read the posts. I challenged the idea that Malone is some type of singular point of failure (have repeatedly said Malone could be the wrong guy, but the issues are much larger than Malone). I think the roster is a much larger problem, but as is the case with most fans who call into talk radio, firing the coach is the easy solution every time, otherwise it requires admitting much more work to be done. Put another way: if this all sounds fairly familiar with the Shaw years, at what point do we start challenging ourselves a little bit to say "Are Shaw and Malone the two worst coaches ever, or maybe is there something else at work also?" Remember the reaction from Indiana players when Shaw got fired? They called our locker room a bunch of children. I believe said the problem was we had no adults in the room. Everybody laughed it off then because it's easier to dismiss a finger pointed at you (or your team) than consider if there are larger issues than just "man, Shaw is the woooooooorst". I don't think Shaw was a great coach, but perhaps the situation wasn't a good one as well. Plenty of room to look at Gallo/Chandler/Faried as all guys who never quite met their potential, are fairly laid back, and miscast in the role of veteran leaders. They're not bad dudes, but I don't think they're locker room leaders. There's also an argument that all three are kind of underachievers considering where their potential could have been. Faried is the most limited, but even he just hasn't bothered to add a shot even while bigs all over the league do. Three guys who never quite met their potential as your veteran core could easily present problems when you want your young guys to be face of the franchise type players. Isn't that at least a possibility? So, we sign Nelson. Or Miller. Or try to sign Wade or trade for Millsap. All in the name of "we really need better locker room leadership." That's a pretty striking indictment on your three heavy minute veterans. You have a team where you're building around young players, you cannot afford a neutral or negative environment. That was my point. Much of this conversation wasn't with you. You tried to be the formative opinion on Melvin Hunt, so I replied. It sounds like we're closer than ritzy and I are, since you at least acknowledge the roster is a problem. I don't want to hire a new coach into the same situation. So, even if you're going to fire the coach, do yourself a favor, and get rid of the issues that have been consistent through two coaches now. At least give this next coach a fresh start. Re: Hunt, if you want to give him a few extra wins and pop him to .500, have at it. I'm sure you're also doing the same where Malone doesn't deserve blame for losses as long as you're asking for context with a W-L record. More importantly: interim coaches almost always see a bump in production, and very rarely sustain it beyond the rest of that year. It's a small sample size after a team had completely quit. I don't give Melvin Hunt praise for being what the team probably should have been if they didn't quit. A little under. .500 or close to it. Melvin Hunt hasn't sniffed another head coach interview anywhere, either. If people a heck of a lot smarter than all of us thought what he did was as impressive as some on here do, don't you think he would have at least gotten a look? This is a smart forum with highly engaged and passionate fans. We'd have to be with the product we've been dealing with. I'm just challenging myself and the group to be a little better than the talk radio guy who pounds the table for firing the coach or replacing the starting QB as if that's all it takes to fix this thing. If you want to fire the coach, go for it, but we can at least acknowledge several of these problems have existed long before Malone got here. I count at least 3 strawmen in this post. but rather than respond to them and your snark, I will concede this debate to you. thanks for the lively debate, friend! |
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Post by game on Jan 10, 2017 15:31:52 GMT -5
There are actually a whole slew of player excuses on the last few pages ranging from how they're worried they'll be traded to injuries to fatigue to variable minutes to how they're not bad guys, so stop blaming them. This whole thread is based on blaming Malone. You added some excuses. They're not hard to find, brother. You just have to read the posts. I challenged the idea that Malone is some type of singular point of failure (have repeatedly said Malone could be the wrong guy, but the issues are much larger than Malone). I think the roster is a much larger problem, but as is the case with most fans who call into talk radio, firing the coach is the easy solution every time, otherwise it requires admitting much more work to be done. Put another way: if this all sounds fairly familiar with the Shaw years, at what point do we start challenging ourselves a little bit to say "Are Shaw and Malone the two worst coaches ever, or maybe is there something else at work also?" Remember the reaction from Indiana players when Shaw got fired? They called our locker room a bunch of children. I believe said the problem was we had no adults in the room. Everybody laughed it off then because it's easier to dismiss a finger pointed at you (or your team) than consider if there are larger issues than just "man, Shaw is the woooooooorst". I don't think Shaw was a great coach, but perhaps the situation wasn't a good one as well. Plenty of room to look at Gallo/Chandler/Faried as all guys who never quite met their potential, are fairly laid back, and miscast in the role of veteran leaders. They're not bad dudes, but I don't think they're locker room leaders. There's also an argument that all three are kind of underachievers considering where their potential could have been. Faried is the most limited, but even he just hasn't bothered to add a shot even while bigs all over the league do. Three guys who never quite met their potential as your veteran core could easily present problems when you want your young guys to be face of the franchise type players. Isn't that at least a possibility? So, we sign Nelson. Or Miller. Or try to sign Wade or trade for Millsap. All in the name of "we really need better locker room leadership." That's a pretty striking indictment on your three heavy minute veterans. You have a team where you're building around young players, you cannot afford a neutral or negative environment. That was my point. Much of this conversation wasn't with you. You tried to be the formative opinion on Melvin Hunt, so I replied. It sounds like we're closer than ritzy and I are, since you at least acknowledge the roster is a problem. I don't want to hire a new coach into the same situation. So, even if you're going to fire the coach, do yourself a favor, and get rid of the issues that have been consistent through two coaches now. At least give this next coach a fresh start. Re: Hunt, if you want to give him a few extra wins and pop him to .500, have at it. I'm sure you're also doing the same where Malone doesn't deserve blame for losses as long as you're asking for context with a W-L record. More importantly: interim coaches almost always see a bump in production, and very rarely sustain it beyond the rest of that year. It's a small sample size after a team had completely quit. I don't give Melvin Hunt praise for being what the team probably should have been if they didn't quit. A little under. .500 or close to it. Melvin Hunt hasn't sniffed another head coach interview anywhere, either. If people a heck of a lot smarter than all of us thought what he did was as impressive as some on here do, don't you think he would have at least gotten a look? This is a smart forum with highly engaged and passionate fans. We'd have to be with the product we've been dealing with. I'm just challenging myself and the group to be a little better than the talk radio guy who pounds the table for firing the coach or replacing the starting QB as if that's all it takes to fix this thing. If you want to fire the coach, go for it, but we can at least acknowledge several of these problems have existed long before Malone got here. I count at least 3 strawmen in this post. but rather than respond to them and your snark, I will concede this debate to you. thanks for the lively debate, friend! Haha. Way to "concede" with snark of your own. +1. It's basketball, brother. There's no reason to make it a bigger deal than it is or take it personally that others have differing opinions on Michael Malone, Melvin Hunt, Kenneth Faried, or Ally Sturm. None of it matters. All in fun. Have a good day. |
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Post by JB on Jan 10, 2017 15:35:17 GMT -5
I count at least 3 strawmen in this post. but rather than respond to them and your snark, I will concede this debate to you. thanks for the lively debate, friend! Haha. Way to "concede" with snark of your own. +1. It's basketball, brother. There's no reason to make it a bigger deal than it is or take it personally that others have differing opinions on Michael Malone, Melvin Hunt, Kenneth Faried, or Ally Sturm. None of it matters. All in fun. Have a good day.  |
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Post by Coach Sticky on Jan 10, 2017 16:41:13 GMT -5
Wait people having different opinions about Ally Sturm?!
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Post by inyourmind on Jan 10, 2017 17:36:43 GMT -5
Yup. All tho things wouldn't be as bad. The whole Jokic thing doesn't happen. Still a flawed roster, with flawed players, and were just in that rut where guys are caring less and less. Hunt was always overrated. That team completely shut out Shaw. I remember people being critical of the Nuggets outside of the situation because of how blantant it was. Hunt came in, they turned it on, and went on your typical run in that kinda situation. Yeah the FO made him sit the occasional guy but nobody ever mentions the teams he beat. Kings, Lakers, Minny, Knicks, Pelicans, Magic, Lakers. Amazing win vs the Warriors, beat the Bucks & Jazz. He had a really easy stretch with players whom basically rested all year and took games off. This roster just isn't built for success. That 57 win year was a fluke. Most people saw that. Nuggets got bounced in the 1st round. Building how we've built is just flawed. We rely on a massive collection of above average talent. Everyone needs to stay healthy because nobody carries the roster, so the second 1 or 2 guys get banged up we go down. Like that 57 win year Gallo got hurt and it was over. We need everyone to be happy, giving maximum effort, no complaining and 100% behind the coach and it's difficult to do. Guys want certain minutes, certain roles, you can't keep like 9 guys on the same page. It's difficult to coach. Team has zero hierarchy outside of a 21 year old C but the problem is no coach is going to be able to come in and give him that title because for years with this core we've basically had an all for one one for all type situation. Gallo gets to decline trades, and do whatever he wants on offense. Same with Barton/Chandler/Nelson. Jokic agreed and didn't even kick up a fuss when Malone benched him. You think Rubio runs the show in Minny? KAT could get benched? On most teams there's a hierarchy, guys who run the offense, 1st options etc. Mudiay was probably the closest thing we had to that. Drafted 7th, dumped Lawson, marketed him, day 1 starter with big minutes. Clearly not ready, might never be. Mike D, Hunt, Malone, whatever coach. Sure some would do better. Malone has been brutal. We'd win some more games. At the end of the day until you tear what we've built down nothing changes tho. FO has made mistakes. Held on to players a little too long. Should have pulled the trigger pre Malone during the Shawful era and restarted. I see where they were coming from tho. They were clearly holding out and waiting to turn assets into a bigger piece, star, and hoping they got lucky in FA. Just didn't happen, not happening anytime soon and even if it does a year from now we no longer have the culture/supporting pieces to wait for it. I'll give TC/Josh a crack at a rebuild. IMO there hands have been tied being forced to compete but this year it's just obvious the Nuggets need that change so many have been asking for .. for a few years now. the 57 win year may have been a fluke, but is there any reason to believe that with a better coach we couldn't emulate the success we had during the 11-12 season? that team was deep, had no major locker room issues and came damn close to upsetting the Lakers in the playoffs. is there any reason to believe with a better coach we wouldn't have a winning record at home? is there any reason to believe with a better coach teams on a second of b2b in Denver would not be auto wins like they were previously? is this team that devoid of talent that those are unrealistic goals? really? That's my point tho. There was always going to be something with how we've been building. Coaches like Malone and Shaw deserve some blame and played there part, and so have the players. However the building of this team was always extremely flawed and was always 100% reliant on getting that star trade, star singing and moving forward with that. Drafting a star seemed like a legitimate option but given the ages by the time that star hits 23-24 the supporting pieces are too old, and with how were building developing a true #1 option is kinda difficult as we've seen. Somebody was always going to get pissy over minutes, role, leave for greener pastures like Iggy, or when you rely on 5-10 guys equally get hurt and struggle with health. You just can't build a roster like Denver has. It's not the blue print. Teams with a track record of success can get away with it, teams like the Pistons got away with it because they were a collection of All-Stars vs fringe All-Stars/above average talent. Denver has had barely any hierarchy, direction. Karl was able to get the best out of this unit because it was at the start of what we were doing, it fit him perfectly because he was more or less the "star", than it came crashing down and the players realized we couldn't win. Didn't Andre Miller speak out and say something about that? It's like yeah with a better coach we'd win a few more games for sure. Someone who started Jokic and played him properly from the get go adds more wins. I don't think the wins are game changing tho, and I think just like Shaw/Malone it would be bound to come down. You'd need a great coach to sort the situation as well, not every coach could come in and do that. Guys were always going to leave, get hurt, or get annoyed. Regardless of who's the coach Denver's plan was always flawed and the biggest issue of them all. Even with Malone. Had we gave him a normal, unclustered roster, that wasn't a ticking timebomb for drama he would have looked bad. Malone has been brutal. I've s**t on him as much as anybody but Denver's situation isn't easy. He's been a bad coach his entire career IMO but he's the 2nd biggest issue to me behind how this team has been built. |
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