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Post by josh on Jan 9, 2017 17:31:53 GMT -5
You forgot TC ttaded McGee and a first for nothing !
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Post by JB on Jan 9, 2017 17:48:13 GMT -5
and we've also seen what this core has done with a coach that knew how to play to the strength of his roster: top 5 in offensive efficiency and around middle of the pack defensively. we have a historically putrid defense, regressing young players and disgruntled vets. only Jokic's brilliance is shining through this sea of darkness, and he's excelling in spite of Malone, not because of him. I honestly wanted to Malone to work out but I can't point to a single positive thing about his time here and say "we can build on that". I'm not making an argument why Malone is great. I'm making an argument for addressing the players who avoid accountability like the plague. That's not going to change just because you fire the coach. The same culture that has young guys coming in and being told Denver is boring, so you'll be forced to focus on hoops. Jameer Nelson and Mike Miller are the guys trying to actively lead and bring the team together. Both are over 5 years out of their prime, and one doesn't play at all. That doesn't work. I 100% believe Malone when he says the only guys speaking up are two of the young guys, because it's consistent with what we've seen with these guys for years, and that's a f***ing embarrassment. The 57 win team at least had Iguodala, who is a douche, but is accountable. So... fire the coach if you'd like, but I'm not doing it until I've addressed the locker room. I'm not bringing a new coach into the same mess as the last two and expecting a different results. Spoiler alert: these guys quit and have effort that's inconsistent, and the young guys look to the vets on how to act. No thanks. just answer this one question: would we be having this debate if Josh Kroenke was smart enough to hire Mike Dantoni or Melvin Hunt. a simple yes or no will suffice. |
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Post by game on Jan 9, 2017 18:03:39 GMT -5
I'm not making an argument why Malone is great. I'm making an argument for addressing the players who avoid accountability like the plague. That's not going to change just because you fire the coach. The same culture that has young guys coming in and being told Denver is boring, so you'll be forced to focus on hoops. Jameer Nelson and Mike Miller are the guys trying to actively lead and bring the team together. Both are over 5 years out of their prime, and one doesn't play at all. That doesn't work. I 100% believe Malone when he says the only guys speaking up are two of the young guys, because it's consistent with what we've seen with these guys for years, and that's a f***ing embarrassment. The 57 win team at least had Iguodala, who is a douche, but is accountable. So... fire the coach if you'd like, but I'm not doing it until I've addressed the locker room. I'm not bringing a new coach into the same mess as the last two and expecting a different results. Spoiler alert: these guys quit and have effort that's inconsistent, and the young guys look to the vets on how to act. No thanks. just answer this one question: would we be having this debate if Josh Kroenke was smart enough to hire Mike Dantoni or Melvin Hunt. a simple yes or no will suffice. Yes, and it's not even close. f***ing Melvin Hunt? Are you serious? Something about that magical 10-13 run you can't get out of your head? History is littered with interim head coaches seeing a nice bump in effort/wins after a firing, and almost always, they fall right down to Earth if they're brought back. It literally happens all the time, in every sport. That nice bump was still under .500, so, I guess, let's throw a parade. D'Antoni has nothing even close to a Nash or Harden in Denver, so nope, pretty sure we're in a similar spot with him as well. He's had spectacular failures without an elite player / ball handler who can run his offense. That's basically my entire point, so thank you for summing it up. None of these coaches are going to magically turn this roster into a comfortable playoff team. You can act like the simple solution of firing the coach is all this team needs and it's all good, but it's not. Maybe the coach does need to go. I'm not even disagreeing with you there, but it comes behind changing a core that's been here a heck of a lot longer than Malone, with a lot of the same issues. Coaches can help, but the NBA is, and always has been, about the talent on the floor. You're kidding yourself to think otherwise. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2017 18:14:11 GMT -5
just answer this one question: would we be having this debate if Josh Kroenke was smart enough to hire Mike Dantoni or Melvin Hunt. a simple yes or no will suffice. f***ing Melvin Hunt? Are you serious? Something about that magical 10-13 run you can't get out of your head? hahahaha This has me laughing. Sorry ritzy, but yea, are you serious about M-Hunt. Bad example dude. |
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Post by JB on Jan 9, 2017 18:41:39 GMT -5
just answer this one question: would we be having this debate if JoSh Kroenke was smart enough to hire Mike Dantoni or Melvin Hunt. a simple yes or no will suffice. Yes, and it's not even close. f***ing Melvin Hunt? Are you serious? Something about that magical 10-13 run you can't get out of your head? History is littered with interim head coaches seeing a nice bump in effort/wins after a firing, and almost always, they fall right down to Earth if they're brought back. It literally happens all the time, in every sport. That nice bump was still under .500, so, I guess, let's throw a parade. D'Antoni has nothing even close to a Nash or Harden in Denver, so nope, pretty sure we're in a similar spot with him as well. He's had spectacular failures without an elite player / ball handler who can run his offense. That's basically my entire point, so thank you for summing it up. None of these coaches are going to magically turn this roster into a comfortable playoff team. You can act like the simple solution of firing the coach is all this team needs and it's all good, but it's not. Maybe the coach does need to go. I'm not even disagreeing with you there, but it comes behind changing a core that's been here a heck of a lot longer than Malone, with a lot of the same issues. Coaches can help, but the NBA is, and always has been, about the talent on the floor. You're kidding yourself to think otherwise. that 10-13 run was indeed magical. we once again had a coach that understood how to use his roster effectively and use the altitude to our advantage. it was the best stretch of basketball I've enjoyed in nearly 4 years. Dantoni wouldn't have had Nash or Harden, but he would have had a goofy white Serb Magic Johnson that would be considered for the ASG this season if he were coach. and I'll tell you this, he wouldn't have spent the first part of the season pairing him with bad fit up front, then benching him, then trashing him to the media saying he just put up empty numbers on a injured team during his rookie year and he wasn't that good to begin with. talk about leadership qualities! gtfoh is there other Nugget fans that believe we would be just as terrible, just as dysfunctional, just as embarrassing if we had a better coach that understood how to use the same winning formula that gave the Nuggets success for 10 straight years? |
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Post by game on Jan 9, 2017 18:45:37 GMT -5
If you think there are better coaching options than Mike Malone, that's a perfectly fine opinion.
Let's just please not overstate what a coaching change is going to do without significant roster changes. This is not a real playoff roster being held back by the head coach. It's just not.
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Post by JB on Jan 9, 2017 18:50:30 GMT -5
f***ing Melvin Hunt? Are you serious? Something about that magical 10-13 run you can't get out of your head? hahahaha This has me laughing. Sorry ritzy, but yea, are you serious about M-Hunt. Bad example dude. yes, I'm very serious about Hunt. going from the Shaw era to Hunt was like waking up from a coma. we played hard and exciting and it looked like things were back on track. then Malone was hired. |
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Post by JB on Jan 9, 2017 19:00:25 GMT -5
and just to add about Dantoni, when he was forced to mold his offense around high usage, ISO players like Kobe or Melo, he struggled. he wouldn't have had that problem in Denver.
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Post by JB on Jan 9, 2017 19:09:45 GMT -5
If you think there are better coaching options than Mike Malone, that's a perfectly fine opinion. Let's just please not overstate what a coaching change is going to do without significant roster changes. This is not a real playoff roster being held back by the head coach. It's just not. it's fine if you believe this isn't a "real" playoff roster, but you're still ascribing too much blame on the players and not enough on the coach. Faried has had his minutes jerked around all season and still plays hard. Chandler was unquestionably the best player during the first part of the season and his struggles could be attributed to fatigue/placed into the starting lineup. without him, we probably would be at the bottom of the conference. Gallo is another story. he might going through the motions, or his injury-plagued history is starting to catch up to him. I don't feel it's urgent to dump these guys for 30 cents on the dollar (maybe Gallo due to his contract). they aren't malcontents, they aren't headcases, they're above-average role players that aren't being put into a position to succeed by their coach. |
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Post by GBG on Jan 9, 2017 19:34:29 GMT -5
On Melvin Hunt, ritzy is right. The 10-13 record was misleading. The FO made him sit players for "rest" late in the season because he was doing too well, and we didn't want to drop below the 7th spot in the draft. Hunt was ordered into a "soft tank". He was excellent, and you could see the spirit the team played with and the intelligence of things like out of bounds plays, plays after timeouts, rotations, usage of timeouts, etc. Hunt was a couple levels above what we've seen with Malone as far as in-game coaching is concerned.
I think our vets now are distracted and not playing hard, especially on D, expecting they could be traded. They likely were despirited after Malone frittered away several wins into losses late in games earlier in the season. They are no longer "bought into" his schemes. You can see that too. Malone doesn't have buy-in since the players have lost some faith in what he's doing. We need some new players and to trade away some guys we have, but MM has been a huge problem as a tactician and in-game coach.
Hunt, with the benefit of hindsight I realize, would have been far better.
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Post by brick2 on Jan 9, 2017 20:25:29 GMT -5
Hunt was good and I would have been happy to have him back had the Nugs gone in that direction. But...you never know what could happen once the bloom is off the rose. Yeah the players played harder and better but that often happens when someone new takes over a team, especially a new coach following an absurdly bad one. And Hunt still would have had to deal with egos and injuries. Hard to say what would have happened.
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Post by GBG on Jan 9, 2017 20:30:11 GMT -5
Yeah, who knows what would have happened, but good in-game coaching sure beats bad in-game coaching.
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Post by brick2 on Jan 9, 2017 20:33:26 GMT -5
and just to add about Dantoni, when he was forced to mold his offense around high usage, ISO players like Kobe or Melo, he struggled. What would you call Harden? I think D'Antoni would have been good in Denver because he can coach uptempo, but without a star to rely on I'm uncertain how good. Thinking back to when Shaw was hired though and iirc there was a lot of talk from him about playing uptempo but with more defense so that we could win in the playoffs. How much of that do you think was direction from Josh? Maybe as a backlash to the Karl experience? The style Hunt reverted to was uptempo as well...and they hired Malone who is supposed to be a defense-focused coach. Maybe, just maybe, the FO is meddling a bit too much and just needs to let the coaches do their thing. |
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Post by altitudesickness on Jan 9, 2017 20:39:34 GMT -5
While harden is a very good iso player he also leads the league in assists.
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Post by eathb on Jan 9, 2017 20:43:12 GMT -5
MDA is a good coach but he doesn't like bigs and we don't have the shooters to play his system. Murray would be really good though.
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Post by brick2 on Jan 9, 2017 20:50:11 GMT -5
You forgot TC ttaded McGee and a first for nothing ! That was a good trade. The contract was toxic. |
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Post by brick2 on Jan 9, 2017 20:52:17 GMT -5
While harden is a very good iso player he also leads the league in assists. Yeah but if you're talking about high usage players in the league today about the only other player that's even close to Harden is Westbrook. |
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Post by JB on Jan 9, 2017 21:43:37 GMT -5
and just to add about Dantoni, when he was forced to mold his offense around high usage, ISO players like Kobe or Melo, he struggled. What would you call Harden? I think D'Antoni would have been good in Denver because he can coach uptempo, but without a star to rely on I'm uncertain how good. Thinking back to when Shaw was hired though and iirc there was a lot of talk from him about playing uptempo but with more defense so that we could win in the playoffs. How much of that do you think was direction from Josh? Maybe as a backlash to the Karl experience? The style Hunt reverted to was uptempo as well...and they hired Malone who is supposed to be a defense-focused coach. Maybe, just maybe, the FO is meddling a bit too much and just needs to let the coaches do their thing. Harden is high usage/iso centric, but he's always been of the most gifted passers in the league. you could never tell Kobe or Melo "you're the PG now", their mentality is to score on every possession. |
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Post by inyourmind on Jan 9, 2017 22:19:44 GMT -5
I'm not making an argument why Malone is great. I'm making an argument for addressing the players who avoid accountability like the plague. That's not going to change just because you fire the coach. The same culture that has young guys coming in and being told Denver is boring, so you'll be forced to focus on hoops. Jameer Nelson and Mike Miller are the guys trying to actively lead and bring the team together. Both are over 5 years out of their prime, and one doesn't play at all. That doesn't work. I 100% believe Malone when he says the only guys speaking up are two of the young guys, because it's consistent with what we've seen with these guys for years, and that's a f***ing embarrassment. The 57 win team at least had Iguodala, who is a douche, but is accountable. So... fire the coach if you'd like, but I'm not doing it until I've addressed the locker room. I'm not bringing a new coach into the same mess as the last two and expecting a different results. Spoiler alert: these guys quit and have effort that's inconsistent, and the young guys look to the vets on how to act. No thanks. just answer this one question: would we be having this debate if Josh Kroenke was smart enough to hire Mike Dantoni or Melvin Hunt. a simple yes or no will suffice. Yup. All tho things wouldn't be as bad. The whole Jokic thing doesn't happen. Still a flawed roster, with flawed players, and were just in that rut where guys are caring less and less. Hunt was always overrated. That team completely shut out Shaw. I remember people being critical of the Nuggets outside of the situation because of how blantant it was. Hunt came in, they turned it on, and went on your typical run in that kinda situation. Yeah the FO made him sit the occasional guy but nobody ever mentions the teams he beat. Kings, Lakers, Minny, Knicks, Pelicans, Magic, Lakers. Amazing win vs the Warriors, beat the Bucks & Jazz. He had a really easy stretch with players whom basically rested all year and took games off. This roster just isn't built for success. That 57 win year was a fluke. Most people saw that. Nuggets got bounced in the 1st round. Building how we've built is just flawed. We rely on a massive collection of above average talent. Everyone needs to stay healthy because nobody carries the roster, so the second 1 or 2 guys get banged up we go down. Like that 57 win year Gallo got hurt and it was over. We need everyone to be happy, giving maximum effort, no complaining and 100% behind the coach and it's difficult to do. Guys want certain minutes, certain roles, you can't keep like 9 guys on the same page. It's difficult to coach. Team has zero hierarchy outside of a 21 year old C but the problem is no coach is going to be able to come in and give him that title because for years with this core we've basically had an all for one one for all type situation. Gallo gets to decline trades, and do whatever he wants on offense. Same with Barton/Chandler/Nelson. Jokic agreed and didn't even kick up a fuss when Malone benched him. You think Rubio runs the show in Minny? KAT could get benched? On most teams there's a hierarchy, guys who run the offense, 1st options etc. Mudiay was probably the closest thing we had to that. Drafted 7th, dumped Lawson, marketed him, day 1 starter with big minutes. Clearly not ready, might never be. Mike D, Hunt, Malone, whatever coach. Sure some would do better. Malone has been brutal. We'd win some more games. At the end of the day until you tear what we've built down nothing changes tho. FO has made mistakes. Held on to players a little too long. Should have pulled the trigger pre Malone during the Shawful era and restarted. I see where they were coming from tho. They were clearly holding out and waiting to turn assets into a bigger piece, star, and hoping they got lucky in FA. Just didn't happen, not happening anytime soon and even if it does a year from now we no longer have the culture/supporting pieces to wait for it. I'll give TC/Josh a crack at a rebuild. IMO there hands have been tied being forced to compete but this year it's just obvious the Nuggets need that change so many have been asking for .. for a few years now. |
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Post by JB on Jan 9, 2017 23:52:58 GMT -5
just answer this one question: would we be having this debate if Josh Kroenke was smart enough to hire Mike Dantoni or Melvin Hunt. a simple yes or no will suffice. Yup. All tho things wouldn't be as bad. The whole Jokic thing doesn't happen. Still a flawed roster, with flawed players, and were just in that rut where guys are caring less and less. Hunt was always overrated. That team completely shut out Shaw. I remember people being critical of the Nuggets outside of the situation because of how blantant it was. Hunt came in, they turned it on, and went on your typical run in that kinda situation. Yeah the FO made him sit the occasional guy but nobody ever mentions the teams he beat. Kings, Lakers, Minny, Knicks, Pelicans, Magic, Lakers. Amazing win vs the Warriors, beat the Bucks & Jazz. He had a really easy stretch with players whom basically rested all year and took games off. This roster just isn't built for success. That 57 win year was a fluke. Most people saw that. Nuggets got bounced in the 1st round. Building how we've built is just flawed. We rely on a massive collection of above average talent. Everyone needs to stay healthy because nobody carries the roster, so the second 1 or 2 guys get banged up we go down. Like that 57 win year Gallo got hurt and it was over. We need everyone to be happy, giving maximum effort, no complaining and 100% behind the coach and it's difficult to do. Guys want certain minutes, certain roles, you can't keep like 9 guys on the same page. It's difficult to coach. Team has zero hierarchy outside of a 21 year old C but the problem is no coach is going to be able to come in and give him that title because for years with this core we've basically had an all for one one for all type situation. Gallo gets to decline trades, and do whatever he wants on offense. Same with Barton/Chandler/Nelson. Jokic agreed and didn't even kick up a fuss when Malone benched him. You think Rubio runs the show in Minny? KAT could get benched? On most teams there's a hierarchy, guys who run the offense, 1st options etc. Mudiay was probably the closest thing we had to that. Drafted 7th, dumped Lawson, marketed him, day 1 starter with big minutes. Clearly not ready, might never be. Mike D, Hunt, Malone, whatever coach. Sure some would do better. Malone has been brutal. We'd win some more games. At the end of the day until you tear what we've built down nothing changes tho. FO has made mistakes. Held on to players a little too long. Should have pulled the trigger pre Malone during the Shawful era and restarted. I see where they were coming from tho. They were clearly holding out and waiting to turn assets into a bigger piece, star, and hoping they got lucky in FA. Just didn't happen, not happening anytime soon and even if it does a year from now we no longer have the culture/supporting pieces to wait for it. I'll give TC/Josh a crack at a rebuild. IMO there hands have been tied being forced to compete but this year it's just obvious the Nuggets need that change so many have been asking for .. for a few years now. the 57 win year may have been a fluke, but is there any reason to believe that with a better coach we couldn't emulate the success we had during the 11-12 season? that team was deep, had no major locker room issues and came damn close to upsetting the Lakers in the playoffs. is there any reason to believe with a better coach we wouldn't have a winning record at home? is there any reason to believe with a better coach teams on a second of b2b in Denver would not be auto wins like they were previously? is this team that devoid of talent that those are unrealistic goals? really? |
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