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Post by nuggetshipster on Jul 17, 2024 13:24:00 GMT -5
Hunter has at least one "sellable" NBA skill you can pawn off to another team. so he can be a microscopic asset in a future deal. the equivalent of a heavily protected 2nd. Pickett has no redeemable aspect in a trade. it would be for the best to move on right this instant and grab one of the few playable vets left from the scrap heap before it's too late. Agree you can maybe con someone into taking Tyson
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Post by nuggetshipster on Jul 17, 2024 13:31:40 GMT -5
Thing is — your obsession with this is just kinda poisoning the board. A thing you are overlooking is that non-NBA level basketball qualities are just as important as NBA level basketball qualities when it comes to the 12th-15th guys on the team. Are they knuckleheads getting in trouble off the court or being b*****es around the actual players? Are they complaining about playing time? Are they decent people to be around during the thousand hours these people are together when they are not playing an NBA game? Are they decent to the assistant coaches, the trainers, the front office personnel and the rest of the team staff? Do they work reasonably hard in practices, preseason, etc.? Do they show up on time? The guys on rookie contracts make very little money and when it comes to deep bench players whether they are earning it is more about what they are doing when we cannot see. Well this superior attitude is equally poisonous Teams definitely value basketball skills. Of course they value personality as well. But are you trying to convince yourself teams will gladly take on Pickett and Tyson because they don’t complain about playing time? Holmes said Strawther was the only player to reach out to him after the draft. There goes that “they are great locker room guys”
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Post by nuggetshipster on Jul 17, 2024 13:32:43 GMT -5
Only attractive part about Pickett and Tyson is they are roster spots that make less money than the vet min. For cheap owners
That might be a play
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Post by famicommander on Jul 17, 2024 14:39:36 GMT -5
Thing is — your obsession with this is just kinda poisoning the board. A thing you are overlooking is that non-NBA level basketball qualities are just as important as NBA level basketball qualities when it comes to the 12th-15th guys on the team. Are they knuckleheads getting in trouble off the court or being b*****es around the actual players? Are they complaining about playing time? Are they decent people to be around during the thousand hours these people are together when they are not playing an NBA game? Are they decent to the assistant coaches, the trainers, the front office personnel and the rest of the team staff? Do they work reasonably hard in practices, preseason, etc.? Do they show up on time? The guys on rookie contracts make very little money and when it comes to deep bench players whether they are earning it is more about what they are doing when we cannot see. Again, you're just plugging your ears and ignoring that DeAndre Jordan is not a useful player anymore Zeke Nnaji has never been a useful player Hunter Tyson has never been a useful player Jalen Pickett has never been a useful player DaRon Holmes will not be useful this year Basically, if Vlatko Cancar doesn't have a career year we're screwed. If Julian Strawther doesn't take a massive stop forward and stay completely healthy we're screwed. Last year's Strawther will not be nearly good enough. He has looked good in Summer League, but so did Tyson last year. We have 5/15 roster spots dedicated to useless guys, another dedicated to a prospect that could go either way, and another dedicated to a guy that has never been a consistent rotation player and is coming off a major injury. It's entirely possible that 7/15 dudes on our roster this year aren't NBA caliber players. And we don't even have PG2 on the roster yet.
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Post by game on Jul 17, 2024 15:14:30 GMT -5
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Post by nuggetshipster on Jul 17, 2024 15:29:08 GMT -5
What he says is absolutely true tho. Nothing to argue
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Post by game on Jul 17, 2024 15:36:05 GMT -5
I'm sorry, the "and also if this happens too" post is inarguable?
0% and 100% are not the only too possible levels of agreement. I already said I, and I assume many, agree with many of the points that basically everybody everywhere is and has been making for weeks now, while also being a little tired of the Flowers for the 15th Man sessions.
This is the part where semantics actually matter, much to your chagrin, because semantics are his entire point - "useless" and "unplayable" are actually important distinctions for the 11-15th guys on the roster. My point is that Zeke Nnaji has utility in a certain role. DAJ too. Basically everybody listed by the Calvin's Second Round Superstars has proven f***ing utility as an end of bench guy. And if we're going to keep repeating that Da'Ron Holmes is a black mark on the roster, what the f**k are we doing here? I don't personally like Pickett or Nnaji or Tyson, and literally have not since the moment they were drafted in all three cases. Booth has a strategy, it looks not great from my angle, but at some point, time does have to be the judge here.
He can disagree. You can disagree. Again, it seems like we all agree on most of this. There are clearly areas of disagreement on the level of concern for the end of the bench. That's okay.
I'll say it again, that s**t is literally irrelevant compared to Braun and Strawther hitting, as well as health.
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Post by LotharBraunBrownBryant on Jul 17, 2024 15:49:39 GMT -5
it's fairly common for teams to carry a few guys who aren't NBA contributors, and is likely to become more common in the 2nd apron era. Last year's champs had Jordan Walsh (who averaged 7/4/1 in college and was worse than Tyson in the G-league) for example. They carried Svi Mykhailiuk, whose advanced stats make Zeke look like a baller. Jaden Springer is not yet a useful NBA contributor. But their top 8-9 guys in the playoffs balled out and they won it all in fairly dominant fashion.
It seems worse with the Nuggets than with other teams because (1) we follow the Nuggets so we don't know what total f***ing scrubs are at the end of other teams' benches, and (2) because some of us were scratching our heads when the moves were made in the first place because Pickett or Tyson didn't look like they would turn into anything and then they got offered long-term deals, and (3) because the loss of Holmes for the season and the lack of a backup PG makes us really feel the pinch. But it's not actually that out of line for a team to carry this much dead weight. What's going to matter in the playoffs is still going to be, in order: Joker, Murray, AG, MPJ, Braun, [backup PG], PWat, Saric, Strawther, Vlatko, DAJ. And that's not out of line with what other contenders rely on.
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Post by game on Jul 17, 2024 15:58:26 GMT -5
It seems worse with the Nuggets than with other teams because (1) we follow the Nuggets so we don't know what total f***ing scrubs are at the end of other teams' benches This 100%. Nobody here has offered the same scrutiny to the rosters of other top heavy teams. I say all this to say I don't love a lot of Calvin's moves, personally! I think after this season, if it looks as bad or worse than now, I would advocate for a change in that role.
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Post by famicommander on Jul 17, 2024 16:00:17 GMT -5
Again, Strawther and Vlatko are complete unknown quantities at this point. I like both guys, I think both guys will be okay, but it's just as probable that they both completely flame out. And even if they don't, if Murray or (presumably) Westbrook miss 20 games we are completely and utterly boned.
It is NOT common for contenders to have 7 spots out of 15 dedicated to guys that are completely unplayable. And if Vlatko's recovery doesn't go perfectly, or if Strawther regresses or plateaus, that's pretty much what we're looking at.
It's common for teams to have anywhere from 2 to 4 worthless guys on their bench. Not 5-7. To go back out and get DJ again when we already knew we were stuck with Tyson and Pickett? To bring back Vlatko without first moving on from Zeke? To spend 3 picks to get rid of an expiring Reggie contract instead of one of these multi-year quagmires?
Unless Saric and Vlatko go completely nuts from behind the 3 point line this year and everyone else stays completely healthy, we've regressed drastically. And that's unacceptable in a peak Jokic year.
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Post by nuggetshipster on Jul 17, 2024 16:05:24 GMT -5
I'm sorry, the "and also if this happens too" post is inarguable? 0% and 100% are not the only too possible levels of agreement. I already said I, and I assume many, agree with many of the points that basically everybody everywhere is and has been making for weeks now, while also being a little tired of the Flowers for the 15th Man sessions. This is the part where semantics actually matter, much to your chagrin, because semantics are his entire point - "useless" and "unplayable" are actually important distinctions for the 11-15th guys on the roster. My point is that Zeke Nnaji has utility in a certain role. DAJ too. Basically everybody listed by the Calvin's Second Round Superstars has proven f***ing utility as an end of bench guy. And if we're going to keep repeating that Da'Ron Holmes is a black mark on the roster, what the f**k are we doing here? I don't personally like Pickett or Nnaji or Tyson, and literally have not since the moment they were drafted in all three cases. Booth has a strategy, it looks not great from my angle, but at some point, time does have to be the judge here. He can disagree. You can disagree. Again, it seems like we all agree on most of this. There are clearly areas of disagreement on the level of concern for the end of the bench. That's okay. I'll say it again, that s**t is literally irrelevant compared to Braun and Strawther hitting, as well as health. Fami is stating a fact. That we have 5/15 useless players. Potentially 7/15, tho unlikely would be catastrophic You’ll say what again. What is it you, JB, CLN Lothar is trying to say? That Pickett sucking is much less important than Braun not sucking? Well yeah no s**t You are arguing with a fantasy
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Post by LotharBraunBrownBryant on Jul 17, 2024 16:05:36 GMT -5
if you're presuming that Strawther, Vlatko, DAJ, and Zeke are all "worthless" and "completely unplayable" so that you inflate your count to 7 guys, then yeah, it's going to look worse than other teams ... but that's because you're presuming something more extreme than reality.
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Post by nuggetshipster on Jul 17, 2024 16:07:55 GMT -5
This isn’t the defend Calvin board. When Fami says Holmes is a black spot in the roster. It’s not to insult Calvin or to provoke you.
It’s literally a fact. He is completely useless this season.
I think/hope that the point he is trying to make is don’t f***ing give out those guaranteed deals to s**t players. And now since he did, f***ing fix it and waive Pickett.
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Post by nuggetshipster on Jul 17, 2024 16:09:23 GMT -5
if you're presuming that Strawther, Vlatko, DAJ, and Zeke are all "worthless" and "completely unplayable" so that you inflate your count to 7 guys, then yeah, it's going to look worse than other teams ... but that's because you're presuming something more extreme than reality. He has been pretty damn clear about Strawther and Vlatko being unknown He made it clear about it being 5/15. Worst case 7. What are you doing? You WANT to complain about him?
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Post by nuggetshipster on Jul 17, 2024 16:10:25 GMT -5
it's fairly common for teams to carry a few guys who aren't NBA contributors, and is likely to become more common in the 2nd apron era. Last year's champs had Jordan Walsh (who averaged 7/4/1 in college and was worse than Tyson in the G-league) for example. They carried Svi Mykhailiuk, whose advanced stats make Zeke look like a baller. Jaden Springer is not yet a useful NBA contributor. But their top 8-9 guys in the playoffs balled out and they won it all in fairly dominant fashion. It seems worse with the Nuggets than with other teams because (1) we follow the Nuggets so we don't know what total f***ing scrubs are at the end of other teams' benches, and (2) because some of us were scratching our heads when the moves were made in the first place because Pickett or Tyson didn't look like they would turn into anything and then they got offered long-term deals, and (3) because the loss of Holmes for the season and the lack of a backup PG makes us really feel the pinch. But it's not actually that out of line for a team to carry this much dead weight. What's going to matter in the playoffs is still going to be, in order: Joker, Murray, AG, MPJ, Braun, [backup PG], PWat, Saric, Strawther, Vlatko, DAJ. And that's not out of line with what other contenders rely on. I’ve watched HOURS of Svi And I would pay money for him to be on the roster ahead of Pickett
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Post by nuggetshipster on Jul 17, 2024 16:12:41 GMT -5
And this isn’t my first time watching Nuggets scrubs. I’ve been consistently opposed to this notion that our trash is the worst trash.
But I’m sorry to say it. Right now our trash is the worst it has been (modern times). Anyone disagree with that?
People pointing out that our scrubs is historically bad, and too many. And y’all want to mansplain what a scrub is lmao. You guys are unbelievable
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Post by famicommander on Jul 17, 2024 16:15:02 GMT -5
if you're presuming that Strawther, Vlatko, DAJ, and Zeke are all "worthless" and "completely unplayable" so that you inflate your count to 7 guys, then yeah, it's going to look worse than other teams ... but that's because you're presuming something more extreme than reality. If you're going to try to argue that Zeke or DJ aren't worthless from an on-court perspective there's no point to any of this. Those two being worthless was literally the driving force behind our entire offseason. They are why we signed Saric, brought back Vlatko, traded up to get Holmes, and swapped out Key for the much bigger Hall. It's because Zeke and DJ suck that we decided to just not replace KCP and Holiday. And again, I said that I like Strawther and Vlatko, and that I think they'll both work out, but it's just as probable that they don't. They could both go either way. Vlatko is in his 6th season and hasn't grabbed a rotation spot yet, and he's coming of a major knee surgery and looked rusty as hell in international ball this Summer. Strawther was absolutely, positively, not an NBA shooter last season. He has looked awesome so far this Summer and I hope his growth continues, but that's the farthest thing from a guarantee.
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Post by nuggetshipster on Jul 17, 2024 16:18:01 GMT -5
Malone and Booth liked Zeke better than Vlatko BEFORE Vlatko broke his leg.
Think about that. I like Vlatko. I never thought he was on the roster based on nothing but his basketball skills (many say he just jokic friend)
But if people thought Zeke looked better then it’s quite likely you don’t pan out
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Post by GBG on Jul 17, 2024 16:24:41 GMT -5
While Fami makes useful points (to use a variation of one of his favorite descriptiives), he does so on the same topic repeatedly and doesn’t discuss what isn’t obvious, such as what we don’t see. Scooter filled in that gap, and that’s good. But I think I should note that Fami came onto this message board to s**t on one specific player repeatedly and ceaselessly (or are those the same descriptive? 🤔) Facu was his whipping boy, and now he gets entertainment for himself by having Pickett, Tyson, and especially Zeke to trash. Kinda his MO to be overly dramatic on how bad a guy or multiple guys are on our team.
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Post by famicommander on Jul 17, 2024 16:27:31 GMT -5
While Fami makes useful points (to use a variation of one of his favorite descriptiives), he does so on the same topic repeatedly and doesn’t discuss what isn’t obvious, such as what we don’t see. Scooter filled in that gap, and that’s good. But I think I should note that Fami came onto this message board to s**t on one specific player repeatedly and ceaselessly (or are those the same descriptive? 🤔) Facu was Hus whipping boy, and now he gets entertainment for himself by having Pickett, Tyson, and especially Zeke to trash. Kinda his MO to be overly dramatic on how bad a guy or multiple guys are on our team. I wasn't overly dramatic about Campazzo at all. I was 100% right. And I'm 100% right about Zeke, Tyson, and Pickett too. They are horrible at the NBA level. Hell, the latter two aren't even good G-Leaguers. I love DJ, but he should've retired as NBA champion. It's like you're all forgetting that we weren't good enough last season and we've regressed drastically everywhere except the backup center spot (as long as Saric stays healthy).
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