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Post by LotharBraunBrownBryant on Jul 17, 2024 16:39:39 GMT -5
if you're presuming that Strawther, Vlatko, DAJ, and Zeke are all "worthless" and "completely unplayable" so that you inflate your count to 7 guys, then yeah, it's going to look worse than other teams ... but that's because you're presuming something more extreme than reality. He has been pretty damn clear about Strawther and Vlatko being unknown He made it clear about it being 5/15. Worst case 7. What are you doing? You WANT to complain about him? I don't want to complain about anyone. Personal beef is exceedingly boring. I'm just pointing out that the entire thing is an exercise in worst-case thinking. What happens if Strawther, Vlatko, DAJ, and Zeke are all unplayable, on top of Holmes being hurt and Pickett and Tyson looking like they aren't NBA-caliber players, and then we also have key injuries to other players? Well, then, everything went wrong and we don't win a championship (see: 2021 Nuggets.) But you could play that game with any team in the league -- what if the Celtics have injuries to 2 starters in the playoffs, and also their 8th-11th guys who should be playable turn out to be utter disasters, and they don't have any positive surprises from their deeper bench? Then they don't win it all. Note that this is different from saying "Calvin did everything right". He took risks with the Pickett and Tyson picks and the long-term deals and those look like both misses right now, and so does the Zeke contract. There are plenty of players who each of us could say "I wanted that guy over Pickett or Tyson" -- Andre Jackson Jr. and Trayce Jackson-Davis were both on my list, for example. But there's a difference between "I don't like this move and we'd be in better shape with this player in this spot", versus catastrophizing over the possibility that our 8th-13th guys will ALL be worst-case and pretending other teams wouldn't be screwed if they also had their FRP get injured for the year and then last year's FRP turned out to be "unplayable" and then another depth guy also became "unplayable" and then their veteran locker room guy also blah blah blah unplayable blah blah blah. It's just the polar inverse of the schtick that's like "oh yeah Tyson is gonna be a baller, and Pickett is a mini-Jokic, and Vlatko will be in the running for 6moy, and Braun will be better than KCP, and ..." where everything goes right and of course then we'd cruise to a championship. The most likely result is that some things go right and some go wrong, and we have a really good top 4 players in the playoffs, 4 more adequate players, and a couple guys like Strawther/Vlatko/DAJ who we don't really want to rely on but maybe they soak up a few minutes in some playoff games and they're not the reason for the W or the L. And we go as far as Jokic/Murray/AG/MPJ take us relative to other teams' top guys.
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Post by famicommander on Jul 17, 2024 16:44:05 GMT -5
There is no "what if" about Zeke and DJ. They are both awful. We have years and years worth of data showing it.
We're betting the entire season on Vlatko's knee and Strawther's progression. And literally nobody else getting hurt for more than 5-10 games.
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Post by game on Jul 17, 2024 16:55:46 GMT -5
I'm sorry, the "and also if this happens too" post is inarguable? 0% and 100% are not the only too possible levels of agreement. I already said I, and I assume many, agree with many of the points that basically everybody everywhere is and has been making for weeks now, while also being a little tired of the Flowers for the 15th Man sessions. This is the part where semantics actually matter, much to your chagrin, because semantics are his entire point - "useless" and "unplayable" are actually important distinctions for the 11-15th guys on the roster. My point is that Zeke Nnaji has utility in a certain role. DAJ too. Basically everybody listed by the Calvin's Second Round Superstars has proven f***ing utility as an end of bench guy. And if we're going to keep repeating that Da'Ron Holmes is a black mark on the roster, what the f**k are we doing here? I don't personally like Pickett or Nnaji or Tyson, and literally have not since the moment they were drafted in all three cases. Booth has a strategy, it looks not great from my angle, but at some point, time does have to be the judge here. He can disagree. You can disagree. Again, it seems like we all agree on most of this. There are clearly areas of disagreement on the level of concern for the end of the bench. That's okay. I'll say it again, that s**t is literally irrelevant compared to Braun and Strawther hitting, as well as health. Fami is stating a fact. That we have 5/15 useless players. Potentially 7/15, tho unlikely would be catastrophic You’ll say what again. What is it you, JB, CLN Lothar is trying to say? That Pickett sucking is much less important than Braun not sucking? Well yeah no s**t You are arguing with a fantasy Picking a number of guys on the roster you think are useless is about as far from stating a fact as it gets. He's stating an OPINION, and he's quite hyperbolic about it. If you agree with him, brother, that's great. That doesn't make it a fact that 5 or 7 or 12 of the 15 guys on the roster are useless or legends or f**k boys or Gs or a problem or real hoopers or anything else that is completely subjective. I've already made the case why Jordan as a 15th man is not useless or unplayable or worthless or whatever the new word is. Nor is Zeke. Neither is projected to be in the rotation, so what I consider useful for Jordan is playing in a pinch. He's done that. He's good in the locker room. That's useful for me. It may not be for you. I think we need to collectively be serious about who is willing to take an end of bench minimum role - it's not somebody who is a rotation player in the NBA. I keep coming back to Braun and Strawther because those are the pivot points of this season, assuming typical health, based on how Calvin has designed this roster. Hunter Tyson could be as good as me and no better and it will have zero impact on how good the Nuggets are this year. I would love to swap him out for a different player. That player will also not play this year. It's very clear he wants Braun and Strawther to play, and doesn't want to interfere with that happening. Calvin is playing several hands of blackjack at once, and has made sizable bets on Braun and Strawther and tiny bets on Tyson and Pickett (given neither will even be second string). For our collective efforts, hitting or busting on the first two makes or breaks our chip stack. Hitting or busting on the comparatively small bet is basically insignificant either way. Now in this analogy, the deed to his house is on Jokic, I suppose.
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Post by JB on Jul 17, 2024 17:04:45 GMT -5
another strong game for Superman Ware
24 points 9-12 shooting 10 boards 3 blocks
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Post by LotharBraunBrownBryant on Jul 17, 2024 17:10:00 GMT -5
There is no "what if" about Zeke and DJ. They are both awful. We have years and years worth of data showing it. The years and years of data we have about Zeke and DJ is that they're of similar quality to many other ~12th men around the league. Our top 4 is better than almost any other team's top 4. Our top 9 (presuming Westbook signs and is our primary backup PG) is contender quality. Our 10th-12th guys are comparable to many teams' 10th-12th guys. It sucks that Holmes is injured and that Pickett and Tyson look bad for 2-way players; it'd be nice to have them in the G-league and room for a vet min guy who is a better break-glass option. But the argument just keeps being overstated, as if Strawther, Vlatko, Zeke, and DAJ are all on Tyson's level, which is just inaccurate.
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Post by GBG on Jul 17, 2024 17:34:49 GMT -5
While Fami makes useful points (to use a variation of one of his favorite descriptiives), he does so on the same topic repeatedly and doesn’t discuss what isn’t obvious, such as what we don’t see. Scooter filled in that gap, and that’s good. But I think I should note that Fami came onto this message board to s**t on one specific player repeatedly and ceaselessly (or are those the same descriptive? 🤔) Facu was Hus whipping boy, and now he gets entertainment for himself by having Pickett, Tyson, and especially Zeke to trash. Kinda his MO to be overly dramatic on how bad a guy or multiple guys are on our team. I wasn't overly dramatic about Campazzo at all. I was 100% right. And I'm 100% right about Zeke, Tyson, and Pickett too. They are horrible at the NBA level. Hell, the latter two aren't even good G-Leaguers. I love DJ, but he should've retired as NBA champion. It's like you're all forgetting that we weren't good enough last season and we've regressed drastically everywhere except the backup center spot (as long as Saric stays healthy). The CBA with its second apron is specifically designed for us to regress or, more accurately, for more teams to enter contention windows and prevent dynasties from forming or at least being sustainable. We were clearly close to being a WCF team, and would have been favored to be an NBA Finals repeat participant. So with second apron disincentivizing us to keep KCP, we clearly were destined to regress, unless shortsightedness took over the FO. I’m increasingly doubtful about the FO capabilities these days, but that’s at the margin. As long as we have healthy top 4 players, we will be really good, as a Western Conference 4/5 seed by definition is a really good team. Just not 60-win dominant. Your gripes are relative nitpicks about roster management, and while valid, don’t reach the top of my list of concerns.
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Post by famicommander on Jul 17, 2024 17:56:47 GMT -5
I wasn't overly dramatic about Campazzo at all. I was 100% right. And I'm 100% right about Zeke, Tyson, and Pickett too. They are horrible at the NBA level. Hell, the latter two aren't even good G-Leaguers. I love DJ, but he should've retired as NBA champion. It's like you're all forgetting that we weren't good enough last season and we've regressed drastically everywhere except the backup center spot (as long as Saric stays healthy). The CBA with its second apron is specifically designed for us to regress or, more accurately, for more teams to enter contention windows and prevent dynasties from forming or at least being sustainable. We were clearly close to being a WCF team, and would have been favored to be an NBA Finals repeat participant. So with second apron disincentivizing us to keep KCP, we clearly were destined to regress, unless shortsightedness took over the FO. I’m increasingly doubtful about the FO capabilities these days, but that’s at the margin. As long as we have healthy top 4 players, we will be really good, as a Western Conference 4/5 seed by definition is a really good team. Just not 60-win dominant. Your gripes are relative nitpicks about roster management, and while valid, don’t reach the top of my list of concerns. We could still easily be under the 2nd apron if we just let Reggie ride out his expiring contract on the bench as PG3 and instead used those 3 picks (and, if required, buy some more to ship out too and/or spend a 1st) to dump Tyson, Pickett, and Zeke on a team with cap space that can afford to buy them out. The 2nd apron is why KCP is gone but it has absolutely nothing to do with why we chose not to replace him or Holiday. The reason that is happening is because we have 5 worthless dudes on the roster and two gigantic question marks in Vlatko and Strawther.
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Post by famicommander on Jul 17, 2024 18:05:12 GMT -5
Unless you think that: 1. We need the picks and 2. That Booth was likely to hit on them
You're essentially saying that it's better to have absolute garbage behind our top 8/9 than it is to have decent-ish players for roughly the same price.
Personally, I don't think we need more late draft picks to try to develop right now. We are not even done developing Braun, Watson, Holmes, and Strawther while Pickett and Tyson are both lost causes.
I can't understand how there could be an argument against it. Keep Reggie, trade the picks to dump the other three instead, and replace them all with vet minimums.
Murray, vet min, Reggie Braun, Strawther, vet min Porter, Watson, vet min Gordon, Cancar, [Holmes] Jokic, Saric, Jordan
Instead we're looking at Murray, vet min, Pickett Braun, Strawther Porter, Watson, Tyson Gordon, Cancar, Nnaji, [Holmes] Jokic, Saric, Jordan
Unimaginably poor guard depth. Murray get hurt every year, people. We rode Reggie until he was held together with bubblegum and paperclips last year.
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Post by scooter on Jul 17, 2024 18:06:28 GMT -5
There is no "what if" about Zeke and DJ. They are both awful. We have years and years worth of data showing it. Nope — I don’t much care for Nnaji and yet I cannot agree with the certainty of this take. He’s 23 — the same age as Duncan Robinson when the latter was coming off the bench at the University of Michigan. Although I’ve never been a big believer in Nnaji and would have preferred it if the team had not extended him and had instead traded him as an expiring contract last season, I’ll make this observation — the way he was used last season (because of team personnel) badly exposed and exaggerated his weaknesses. In the majority of Nnaji’s minutes last season, the next biggest Nuggets player on the court was Watson. These bench lineups were way undersized, which contributed to them getting murdered on the glass. Put Nnaji on court alongside Saric or Cancar and there’s a solid chance his minutes go better. That doesn’t mean I’m signing up to be president of the Zeke Nnaji fan club; just that I don’t think he’s as bad as he sometimes appeared last season.
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Post by famicommander on Jul 17, 2024 18:17:33 GMT -5
There is no "what if" about Zeke and DJ. They are both awful. We have years and years worth of data showing it. Nope — I don’t much care for Nnaji and yet I cannot agree with the certainty of this take. He’s 23 — the same age as Duncan Robinson when the latter was coming off the bench at the University of Michigan. Although I’ve never been a big believer in Nnaji and would have preferred it if the team had not extended him and had instead traded him as an expiring contract last season, I’ll make this observation — the way he was used last season (because of team personnel) badly exposed and exaggerated his weaknesses. In the majority of Nnaji’s minutes last season, the next biggest Nuggets player on the court was Watson. These bench lineups were way undersized, which contributed to them getting murdered on the glass. Put Nnaji on court alongside Saric or Cancar and there’s a solid chance his minutes go better. That doesn’t mean I’m signing up to be president of the Zeke Nnaji fan club; just that I don’t think he’s as bad as he sometimes appeared last season. This idea that he'll look better at the 4 ignores the obvious fact that he has the ball skills of a grilled cheese sandwich. He isn't any more likely to figure out how to catch, pass, dribble, and rebound than Pickett is to just figure out how to dribble. Both are lost causes.
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Post by GBG on Jul 17, 2024 18:30:49 GMT -5
Nope — I don’t much care for Nnaji and yet I cannot agree with the certainty of this take. He’s 23 — the same age as Duncan Robinson when the latter was coming off the bench at the University of Michigan. Although I’ve never been a big believer in Nnaji and would have preferred it if the team had not extended him and had instead traded him as an expiring contract last season, I’ll make this observation — the way he was used last season (because of team personnel) badly exposed and exaggerated his weaknesses. In the majority of Nnaji’s minutes last season, the next biggest Nuggets player on the court was Watson. These bench lineups were way undersized, which contributed to them getting murdered on the glass. Put Nnaji on court alongside Saric or Cancar and there’s a solid chance his minutes go better. That doesn’t mean I’m signing up to be president of the Zeke Nnaji fan club; just that I don’t think he’s as bad as he sometimes appeared last season. This idea that he'll look better at the 4 ignores the obvious fact that he has the ball skills of a grilled cheese sandwich. He isn't any more likely to figure out how to catch, pass, dribble, and rebound than Pickett is to just figure out how to dribble. Both are lost causes. Your 100% certitude for how Nnaji will be in his age 26 season, the final year of his bloated contract, ignores that guys can improve. Especially bigger guys, some of whom don’t do much before their age 26 seasons. Some GM will agree with me, even if you never will, and trade for Zeke as a tank commander if nothing else. Washington or Charlotte could really use some of their required 90% of salary cap space on a guy like Zeke. It will still happen, IMO.
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Post by jimijam28 on Jul 17, 2024 18:33:32 GMT -5
Zeke still playing
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Post by famicommander on Jul 17, 2024 18:33:49 GMT -5
This idea that he'll look better at the 4 ignores the obvious fact that he has the ball skills of a grilled cheese sandwich. He isn't any more likely to figure out how to catch, pass, dribble, and rebound than Pickett is to just figure out how to dribble. Both are lost causes. Your 100% certitude for how Nnaji will be in his age 26 season, the final year of his bloated contract, ignores that guys can improve. Especially bigger guys, some of whom don’t do much before their age 26 seasons. Some GM will agree with me, even if you never will, and trade for Zeke as a tank commander if nothing else. Washington or Charlotte could really use some of their required 90% of salary cap space on a guy like Zeke. It will still happen, IMO. He's been in the league for four years and is a worse player today than the minute he stepped onto the court. I don't know how you can watch a guy not be able to catch a damn basketball for four straight years and think maybe he'll figure it out in year eight.
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Post by scooter on Jul 17, 2024 18:36:02 GMT -5
This idea that he'll look better at the 4 ignores the obvious fact that he has the ball skills of a grilled cheese sandwich. He isn't any more likely to figure out how to catch, pass, dribble, and rebound than Pickett is to just figure out how to dribble. Both are lost causes. Thing is — Nnaji (unlike Pickett) does have a strength: lineups with him have ranked high in opponent field goal percentage, as he is good defensively at forcing guys into lower percentage shots. The problem is that he lacks standing reach so he gets worked over on the glass if he doesn’t have much help, which was the case all last season. Its true that he’s not real skilled on the offensive end, but he’s still young (15 months younger than Pickett) and its not like Daniel Gafford or Mitchell Robinson remind anyone of Jokic. The fact that Saric is skilled and has good hands is why I think Nnaji would probably play significantly better alongside him. Nnaji’s most frequent lineup last season was Jackson, Braun, Strawther, Watson, Nnaji — anyone surprised that lineup was bad?
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Post by nuggetshipster on Jul 17, 2024 19:57:54 GMT -5
Isnt Strawther, Watson and Braun great?
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Post by famicommander on Jul 17, 2024 20:01:11 GMT -5
Isnt Strawther, Watson and Braun great? Apparently Saric is the missing ingredient that makes those three and Zeke the killer combination. Or, you know, it's far more likely that Zeke just doesn't have the ball skills to play in this league.
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Post by scooter on Jul 17, 2024 20:31:57 GMT -5
Isnt Strawther, Watson and Braun great? No trio of 21 and 22 year olds on any team in the league are great. Put a few of them together — when they’re all young and inexperienced — and they’re bad.
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Post by duh88 on Jul 17, 2024 23:24:03 GMT -5
Zeke will benefit so f***ing much from playing next to an actual center!
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Post by TNF on Jul 18, 2024 6:44:35 GMT -5
Zeke is a mediocre overpaid NBA player who could still improve.
Pickett is a guy who could only dominate in a YMCA league.
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Post by famicommander on Jul 18, 2024 13:13:29 GMT -5
It's been four years and he still can't do the most basic stuff. It's not like Zeke needed time to figure out how to play in our system, or time to grow into his body. What he lacks are extremely basic skills that he should've developed long before he even turned professional. Catching passes, catching rebounds, boxing out, dribbling, passing. If you can't catch a basketball by your fourth year in the NBA, you're simply never going to figure it out. Sorry.
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