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Post by nuggetshipster on May 20, 2024 12:34:49 GMT -5
Yeah if Calvin just lean on «internal growth» aka saving money again this summer i might puke second apron is not about money, its about trades, signings and picks. for example, if you are over 2nd apron you can't trade one player for multiple players. ie. if you want to trade MPJ, you can't trade him for two or more guys, you have to trade him for equal or slightly lower contract. for example, if you are under 2nd apron, MPJ for Kyrie is legit trade. if you are over, its not cause Kyrie is getting something like 1.5M more then MPJ. you are also losing rights to MLE, and if you are 2 years into 2nd apron, you are losing picks... something like that. its insanely restrictive. you'll see it with Suns, they will have hell trying to retool their roster unless they trade KD or Booker(I think no one sane will trade for Beal even if he agrees to be traded cause of his no trade clause) so last year Booth didn't try to save money, he was trying to stay below 2nd apron for other reasons. in a same time, after loosing Bruce, Nuggets needed to find another ball handler. thats why they signed Reggie. and after signing Reggie we knew Uncle Jeff is not getting back... so Nuggets needed another ball handler, another center and one more big. that was everything they could afford. and all of them had to cost less then 10M total. well, that was impossible. so they decided to sign Reggie and DAJ and add Holiday, and gave Zeke extension. I think plan was to trade him and get someone. but now we are stuck with horrible contract that no one wants and we need money badly... next season, Booth still have not many options. I wouldn't be surprised if Reggie comes back, they resign DAJ again and then extend KCP. KCP will pick up his option and in return he will get something like 4 yrs 80M extension that would kick next season, same time new "TV deal"(its more network deal, but you know what I'm talking about) kicks in and give us some money... he will probably also give Jamal max. so more likely then not, we are running it back. either that, of we are letting KCP go and give starting job to CB and find some cheap bench player who will most likely suck ass, cause you are not getting quality players for 5M. Bruce was lucky exception. third option is trading MPJ, but giving his contract, not sure who would take him and what would you get in return. for example, OG is looking at same type of contract MPJ has. 4 seasons, 35 per season. everyone here is mentioning how he would be perfect fit etc, etc... in last 4 seasons, OG Anunoby has played more then 50 games only once, and was injured during playoffs this season. MPJ has played more then 50 games in 4 out of 5 seasons for Nuggets and was available for playoffs in each of those 4 seasons. not to mention other qualities he has. guy has overcome 3 back surgeries and played full season! and people would trade him for someone who cant stay on the court... fml «The nuggets needed another ball handler. Thats why they signed Reggie» Exactly.. bonehead move
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Post by nuggetshipster on May 20, 2024 12:35:34 GMT -5
I get the sentiment, but go back anad look who was available for that amount of money! There was literally no one. We're in a rock and a hard place. No knock on rock btw. as I said earlier, there wasn't even an attempt. agents like to run victory laps after their client signs with a team, and there wasn't a single "...my client also received interest from the NBA Champion Denver Nuggets" press clipping. not one. we handed out the TPMLE to Reggie on day one and called it a day. I'm not rock so I don't believe ring chasers and bag chasers are available to literally every other championship team except the Nuggets. we didn't even bother to look. JB on the ball here, i go back to Netflix
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Post by famicommander on May 20, 2024 12:38:55 GMT -5
Trade MPJ, Zeke, Reggie, Tyson, and Pickett.
Let DJ and Holiday walk.
Bring back CG on a full time deal.
Bring back Huff and Key on two-ways unless they find someone younger with more upside.
Hopefully bring back KCP.
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Post by GBG on May 20, 2024 12:39:47 GMT -5
I get the sentiment, but go back anad look who was available for that amount of money! There was literally no one. We're in a rock and a hard place. No knock on rock btw. as I said earlier, there wasn't even an attempt. agents like to run victory laps after their client signs with a team, and there wasn't a single "...my client also received interest from the NBA Champion Denver Nuggets" press clipping. not one. we handed out the TPMLE to Reggie on day one and called it a day. I'm not rock so I don't believe ring chasers and bag chasers are available to literally every other championship team except the Nuggets. we didn't even bother to look. Good grief. Now you are lamenting lack of PR, lack of press clippings. What you really forgot is that we couldn’t obtain Gallo in buyout market and he went to Milwaukee instead. As if Gallo gets us past Minny. You were pushing for Gallo’s return. And now he’s totally and conveniently forgotten. Always have to complain about something. We couldn’t be in on XYZ player who would have been this year’s BB, with no evidence that was obtainable. Booth whiffed on three picks as none could help us this year and may never do so. That’s what your complaints should focus on. Three old rookies getting standard NBA contracts, and none of them helped, but they sure blocked us from getting a buyout player like Gallo!
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Post by wicked3line on May 20, 2024 12:43:39 GMT -5
...and that's the issue as he will get $20 mil/year tossed at him by a team and unless MPJ can be shipped out for less returning money before free agency, KSE will not agree to add more salary to a team eliminated in the 2nd round. Flip CB into the starting lineup and get a legit 6th man scorer off the bench. I don’t think the team gets better that way: 1) even if Braun and KCP are an even steven proposition in the starting lineup, how does the bench not get worse by subtracting Braun, the team’s best bench player? 2) Who is this legit 6th man scorer who is a non-Bird rights UFA willing to take the taxpayer’s MLE of $5-6 mil per? I like Taurean Prince and in some world of luck he is this year’s Bruce Brown but the odds are strongly against the Nuggets pulling that off again. I don't disagree with that sentiment as the key to fixing the bench depth involves trading one of MPJ or maybe AG. Luxary tax restrictions simply eliminate the ability to do much in free agency. With that stated, I don't see a scenario where KSE still has MPJ and AG while then also resigning KCP as the tax bill would be enormous for a team that just exited in the 2nd round. The cap will increase after next season via new TV contract as maybe KSE can deal with it for one season being over the 2nd apron. However, that still won't solve the bench issues without a trade of MPJ or maybe AG.
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Post by JB on May 20, 2024 12:46:23 GMT -5
as I said earlier, there wasn't even an attempt. agents like to run victory laps after their client signs with a team, and there wasn't a single "...my client also received interest from the NBA Champion Denver Nuggets" press clipping. not one. we handed out the TPMLE to Reggie on day one and called it a day. I'm not rock so I don't believe ring chasers and bag chasers are available to literally every other championship team except the Nuggets. we didn't even bother to look. Good grief. Now you are lamenting lack of PR, lack of press clippings. What you really forgot is that we couldn’t obtain Gallo in buyout market and he went to Milwaukee instead. As if Gallo gets us past Minny. You were pushing for Gallo’s return. And now he’s totally and conveniently forgotten. Always have to complain about something. We couldn’t be in on XYZ player who would have been this year’s BB, with no evidence that was obtainable. Booth whiffed on three picks as none could help us this year and may never do so. That’s what your complaints should focus on. Three old rookies getting standard NBA contracts, and none of them helped, but they sure blocked us from getting a buyout player like Gallo! we couldn't "obtain" Gallo because we had no open roster spots because Calvin flooded the roster with rookies that might not be NBA caliber. it all goes back to Calvin's foolhardy attempt to game the system. we should've played the buyout market, but couldn't. it didn't have to be Gallo. you're fighting a strawman right now. my original point stands: I want Calvin to be aggressive and attempt to sign ring chasers and vets this summer.
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Post by GBG on May 20, 2024 12:52:16 GMT -5
I don’t think the team gets better that way: 1) even if Braun and KCP are an even steven proposition in the starting lineup, how does the bench not get worse by subtracting Braun, the team’s best bench player? 2) Who is this legit 6th man scorer who is a non-Bird rights UFA willing to take the taxpayer’s MLE of $5-6 mil per? I like Taurean Prince and in some world of luck he is this year’s Bruce Brown but the odds are strongly against the Nuggets pulling that off again. I don't disagree with that sentiment as the key to fixing the bench depth involves trading one of MPJ or maybe AG. Luxary tax restrictions simply eliminate the ability to do much in free agency. With that stated, I don't see a scenario where KSE still has MPJ and AG while then also resigning KCP as the tax bill would be enormous for a team that just exited in the 2nd round. The cap will increase after next season via new TV contract as maybe KSE can deal with it for one season being over the 2nd apron. However, that still won't solve the bench issues without a trade of MPJ or maybe AG. Most likely way to solve bench issues is with the bench guys we have, Watson, Straw, CG getting promoted to standard contract, and Vlatko’s return. He’s a good forward which we overlook. A 15th guy who can play like a 9/10 guy in a 10 man rotation. Finally, Zeke. Oh what to do with him. If we can’t trade him, we have to hope he’s returned to a backup 3/4 role and can rediscover his shot. We have to hope Malone does a better job of developing him, making him a serviceable RS player. He is still only 23, and is a bad offensive player right now, but his defense and switchablility can hep NBA teams in RS, and he could shoot a little bit in the past. His lack of development is very unfortunate, but we might as well see if there is nother role for which he is better suited than backup C, and we will definitely upgrade backup C with someone else.
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Post by GBG on May 20, 2024 12:54:15 GMT -5
Good grief. Now you are lamenting lack of PR, lack of press clippings. What you really forgot is that we couldn’t obtain Gallo in buyout market and he went to Milwaukee instead. As if Gallo gets us past Minny. You were pushing for Gallo’s return. And now he’s totally and conveniently forgotten. Always have to complain about something. We couldn’t be in on XYZ player who would have been this year’s BB, with no evidence that was obtainable. Booth whiffed on three picks as none could help us this year and may never do so. That’s what your complaints should focus on. Three old rookies getting standard NBA contracts, and none of them helped, but they sure blocked us from getting a buyout player like Gallo! we couldn't "obtain" Gallo because we had no open roster spots because Calvin flooded the roster with rookies that might not be NBA caliber. it all goes back to Calvin's foolhardy attempt to game the system. we should've played the buyout market, but couldn't. it didn't have to be Gallo. you're fighting a strawman right now. all I said is, I want Calvin to be aggressive and attempt to sign ring chasers and vets this summer. TC was always “aggressive”. Who cares. You also basically repeated what I wrote in your reply. Three old rookies was at least one too many as it took us out of buyout market. Booth ain’t perfect.
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Post by scooter on May 20, 2024 12:55:06 GMT -5
This is oversimplification. What can we pay to a free agent? Do you know? I’ll stop here and listen. concerning last year, the Nuggets could have used the TPMLE to sign a free agent, which they used to sign Reggie Jackson. the Nuggets just needed one player that could ease the burden of their starters, instead they doubled down on a player that was clearly washed. it was a horrendous decision at the time and cost us a championship in retrospect. What was so terrible about RJ for $5 mil this season? He played in every single game, regular season and playoffs, and averaged 10 points (shooting 43/36/81), 3.8 assists and only 1.3 turnovers over 82 regular season games. He was less valuable in the playoffs, which is also true of 80-90% of the bench players in the league. Taking into the team’s desperate need for a veteran backup PG and the fact Reggie at least played every game this season — which was immensely important since the Nuggets had only rookies otherwise on the PG depth chart — I don’t actually think there were ever many better players available to the team for the TMLE last summer. Am I missing something here? Give me the argument the team would have been better off signing Malik Beasley (or Mo Bamba or Jae Crowder or Harry Giles or Taj Gibson . . .) off the scrap heap and playing Pickett all season at backup PG.
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Post by JB on May 20, 2024 13:13:55 GMT -5
concerning last year, the Nuggets could have used the TPMLE to sign a free agent, which they used to sign Reggie Jackson. the Nuggets just needed one player that could ease the burden of their starters, instead they doubled down on a player that was clearly washed. it was a horrendous decision at the time and cost us a championship in retrospect. What was so terrible about RJ for $5 mil this season? He played in every single game, regular season and playoffs, and averaged 10 points (shooting 43/36/81), 3.8 assists and only 1.3 turnovers over 82 regular season games. He was less valuable in the playoffs, which is also true of 80-90% of the bench players in the league. Taking into the team’s desperate need for a veteran backup PG and the fact Reggie at least played every game this season — which was immensely important since the Nuggets had only rookies otherwise on the PG depth chart — I don’t actually think there were ever many better players available to the team for the TMLE last summer. Am I missing something here? Give me the argument the team would have been better off signing Malik Beasley (or Mo Bamba or Jae Crowder or Harry Giles or Taj Gibson . . .) off the scrap heap and playing Pickett all season at backup PG. the Nuggets had no backup PG this year. Reggie's primarily role was to stagger with Jokic while Jamal played the backup PG. Reggie was so bad, Malone was forced to use Joker to prop him up while Jamal performed two roles in the rotation. this process ran our starters ragged in the regular season and the crescendo was watching them figuratively die of exhaustion in the playoffs. the Nuggets would have been better off with quite literally any other player that did not require to be propped up in such a damaging manner.
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Post by nuggetshipster on May 20, 2024 13:15:08 GMT -5
The thing is that Calvin didnt get the job done. Cant say we need evidence of something else working better to say that he failed. The evidence is that the season is over.
Using the MLE money on a big that can actually play and using assets to trade for an perimiter player seems like an obvious different path
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Post by JB on May 20, 2024 13:19:55 GMT -5
we couldn't "obtain" Gallo because we had no open roster spots because Calvin flooded the roster with rookies that might not be NBA caliber. it all goes back to Calvin's foolhardy attempt to game the system. we should've played the buyout market, but couldn't. it didn't have to be Gallo. you're fighting a strawman right now. all I said is, I want Calvin to be aggressive and attempt to sign ring chasers and vets this summer. TC was always “aggressive”. Who cares. You also basically repeated what I wrote in your reply. Three old rookies was at least one too many as it took us out of buyout market. Booth ain’t perfect. yes, I'm imploring you not to view Calvin's bad decisions in isolation. his plan for the Nuggets repeating deserves wholesale criticism.
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Post by LotharBraunBrownBryant on May 20, 2024 13:22:52 GMT -5
if you are over 2nd apron you can't trade one player for multiple players. ie. if you want to trade MPJ, you can't trade him for two or more guys, you have to trade him for equal or slightly lower contract. This is actually backwards. You can't trade multiple players for one. So you couldn't package AG + KCP + Zeke for a single high-salary player. But you could trade MPJ for multiple lower-salary players.
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Post by wizardofcozz on May 20, 2024 13:44:31 GMT -5
Would do this trade in a heart beat. What do others think??
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Post by freakns on May 20, 2024 13:50:06 GMT -5
second apron is not about money, its about trades, signings and picks. for example, if you are over 2nd apron you can't trade one player for multiple players. ie. if you want to trade MPJ, you can't trade him for two or more guys, you have to trade him for equal or slightly lower contract. for example, if you are under 2nd apron, MPJ for Kyrie is legit trade. if you are over, its not cause Kyrie is getting something like 1.5M more then MPJ. you are also losing rights to MLE, and if you are 2 years into 2nd apron, you are losing picks... something like that. its insanely restrictive. you'll see it with Suns, they will have hell trying to retool their roster unless they trade KD or Booker(I think no one sane will trade for Beal even if he agrees to be traded cause of his no trade clause) so last year Booth didn't try to save money, he was trying to stay below 2nd apron for other reasons. in a same time, after loosing Bruce, Nuggets needed to find another ball handler. thats why they signed Reggie. and after signing Reggie we knew Uncle Jeff is not getting back... so Nuggets needed another ball handler, another center and one more big. that was everything they could afford. and all of them had to cost less then 10M total. well, that was impossible. so they decided to sign Reggie and DAJ and add Holiday, and gave Zeke extension. I think plan was to trade him and get someone. but now we are stuck with horrible contract that no one wants and we need money badly... next season, Booth still have not many options. I wouldn't be surprised if Reggie comes back, they resign DAJ again and then extend KCP. KCP will pick up his option and in return he will get something like 4 yrs 80M extension that would kick next season, same time new "TV deal"(its more network deal, but you know what I'm talking about) kicks in and give us some money... he will probably also give Jamal max. so more likely then not, we are running it back. either that, of we are letting KCP go and give starting job to CB and find some cheap bench player who will most likely suck ass, cause you are not getting quality players for 5M. Bruce was lucky exception. third option is trading MPJ, but giving his contract, not sure who would take him and what would you get in return. for example, OG is looking at same type of contract MPJ has. 4 seasons, 35 per season. everyone here is mentioning how he would be perfect fit etc, etc... in last 4 seasons, OG Anunoby has played more then 50 games only once, and was injured during playoffs this season. MPJ has played more then 50 games in 4 out of 5 seasons for Nuggets and was available for playoffs in each of those 4 seasons. not to mention other qualities he has. guy has overcome 3 back surgeries and played full season! and people would trade him for someone who cant stay on the court... fml «The nuggets needed another ball handler. Thats why they signed Reggie» Exactly.. bonehead move Nuggets were better in non Jokic minutes this season with Reggie then last season with Bruce. including playoffs. so I really wouldn't blame it all on Reggie... there are two main flows we saw in these playoffs, and both goes to Malone. first one, Nuggets were tired. it goes to Malone's character and not being able to let it go in March despite saying all the time rest and health are priorities, he just can't help him self and he went full Thibs mode... second one, Malone doesn't trust anyone who hasn't played 35 seasons in NBA. Justin Holiday went from non playing in regular season, to 8th man in playoffs, to 7th man, to 6th man... and Malone's answer was, "we need offense". well, Braun had far better offensive rating, and the only reason he got minutes was because Ant was everyone else daddy. even though he had all the proofs from last season, even though Braun was clearly playing at high level in playoffs, Malone couldn't wait to put Holiday in rotation before CB(btw, I think Holiday has one playoff before this one despite being 178 yrs old). Peyton ofc got 0 chances. Cause he isn't good offensive player, and can't guard KAT... newsflash, neither can Holiday, who btw had worst drtg among all 8 guys who had regular minutes against Minnesota. and this is not shot on Holiday. guy played far better then I ever expected, but should never be in that position. on other hand, we have no idea how Watson would've played. last season, by some miracle, Malone gave some minutes to CB. and it brought us title. this season, he went back to his old self...
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Post by freakns on May 20, 2024 13:52:35 GMT -5
if you are over 2nd apron you can't trade one player for multiple players. ie. if you want to trade MPJ, you can't trade him for two or more guys, you have to trade him for equal or slightly lower contract. This is actually backwards. You can't trade multiple players for one. So you couldn't package AG + KCP + Zeke for a single high-salary player. But you could trade MPJ for multiple lower-salary players. ah, so I remember it wrongly. my bad then I just know there are multiple limitation with second apron that has nothing to do with money, but have actual player acquiring limitations
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Post by wizardofcozz on May 20, 2024 13:59:58 GMT -5
Northing really possible though on the roster front, UNLESS we shed one of our three MAX contracts. We'll see what happens obviously! Have to resign KCP because if hee walks we are still over cap and can't use his money on someone else.
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Post by jimijam28 on May 20, 2024 14:22:44 GMT -5
Blow it up
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Post by JB on May 20, 2024 14:28:47 GMT -5
remember this gem?
"Some of these teams were trying to get Bruce, trying to make it worth it; it’s like, just be careful what you wish for. Peyton’s bigger. He’s longer. He’s more athletic. He guards better. He passes better. He doesn’t have the experience, and he’s not as good offensively yet, but we need defense more than we need offense on our team."
Calvin needs help.
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Post by GBG on May 20, 2024 14:37:34 GMT -5
Anyone who casts this season as a failure worth heavy criticism ignores the reality of the difficulty of winning a championship, let alone two back to back.
I consider this season a success overall. Won 57 games, tying a franchise record, had an excellent post-ASB run and got to within one good fourth quarter of making WCF for third time in the 2020’s.
Winning a championship require health luck. Which we had in spades in 2023, but not as much this year. Murray probably was at 75% health throughout this postseason, so we didn’t get Playoff Murray. That alone made it a near-impossibility to repeat. KCP had three injuries he played with (ankle, abdomen, finger), RJ had a calf and ankle, who knows what else affected the play of MPJ and AG. In 2023, we had none of these physical issues.
The other luck factor is matchup luck. We didn’t face any team in 2023 that was as much of a matchup challenge to us that the Wolves were. Do we win the chip if we played the 2024 Wolves in 2023 ? I wonder.
Booth could have done better with the draft and roster spot management. That’s the only critique that is really valid. But it’s also hindsight. We were so excited about Tyson after Summer League, and he gave us nothing this season. Strawther had flashes but did little after his own injury. Pickett couldn’t play with the big team outside garbage time. CG played pretty well in a couple games, but wasn’t available for playoffs. Booth will hopefully have more success this summer. In the meantime, I enjoyed watching nearly every game this season, and as an older retired guy, that’s all I can reasonably ask for.
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