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Post by famicommander on Mar 21, 2024 22:43:39 GMT -5
If you replaced Murray's salary with a similarly priced point guard Jokic would win with that point guard. It's when you replace him with nobody and let Facundo Campazzo take over that it becomes a struggle, but we were still a playoff team. Replace Joker with a Facu-level big and see how far Jamal takes us. How can you say that with 100% certainty? What if you replaced him with playoff choker James Harden? How about Luka who you claim isn't a winning basketball player? Again, you're minimizing how good Murray is, especially in the playoffs. Go find me all the guards in NBA history to post 25/5/5 on 45/40/90 shooting. Post that list. Thanks. Find me the list of point guards that got to play alongside a center averaging a 30 point triple double with a steal and a block per game on 55/46/80 shooting. Thanks. Nothing Jamal has ever done has been without Jokic's influence on the game working in his favor. But we've seen Jokic play ridiculously well in the playoffs without Jamal, with hobbled MPJ, and without MPJ. |
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Post by GBG on Mar 21, 2024 22:44:44 GMT -5
Without counting this year, Denver Nuggets were +4341 with and -3144. Per 48 min that is +11.54 with Jokić and -11.23. I am scared to even check this season because it only adds up on that. Denver Nuggets are Jokic in every way, shape or form. When he retires, god knows when, or if this franchise gets a 20% of Jokic caliber player again. Not to mention champioship/s... To think that Malone, Jamal, MPJ, Gordon, KCP would do what they do and have the status in the NBA that they have without Jokic is laughable. As many flaws as Jamal has in typical point guard duties, i cant think of a better pair for Jokic than him. MPJ is an awesome floor spacing shooter, but would gladly have OG + bench piece instead. AG is a perfect 4 man for Jokic, much better than Millsap or Grant, on both ends of the floor (when he is not in Orlando mode) KCP is an ultimate professional and a perfect 5th low usage rate 3&D guard that we needed instead of Barton. Starting 5 is perfect. But the moment any of them are without Jokic on the floor. Everyone looks lost. Coaches, players, everyone. It's embarrassing for NBA team to look that bad and it's been for years now. So, when Jokic (who is playing 70+ games per season every year) is in load manage mode, i will NEVER call him out. In the playoffs it's entirely different story (And he just had one of the most dominant playoff performance in NBA history). The bottom line, good game or bad game, is Jokic knows what he’s doing at all times. And his bad games like the one in Dallas are few and far between. |
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Post by Ring on Mar 21, 2024 22:44:50 GMT -5
Murray plays a lot of his minutes with Christian Braun, Peyton Watson and DJ. Jokic plays most of his minutes with Murray, KCP, MPJ and AG. Murray is basically being asked to carry a Facu/Barton/Monte group. It's nearly impossible. I agree that Murray is tasked with a very difficult task and it's not fair. Mpj would have been in the same position if forced to play with the bench. When I call the rest of the team losers I am not serious about it, just a frustration in the moment. But both Murray and Mpj are paid max money to play like this. Last game against Knicks one scored 5 points and the other one 9 wasting Jokic's 31 points in 27 minutes. And I stopped blaming Murray for anything long time ago. Betting against Murray is like walking around with hollow pockets full of money That's fair but you also can't look at things in a vacuum either. Murray/MPJ are paid max contracts but a portion of that value is how they fit with Jokic. If you swapped out MPJ for Khris Middleton for example, would the Nuggets be better? Defensively sure. Offensively, I don't think so. MPJ creates so much value for the Nuggets because of his gravity and spacing. The Nuggets have a perfectly crafted starting lineup. If you took any of those 5 out of the lineup, the Nuggets would suffer from it IMO. Same with removing Murray and the chemistry he has with Jokic as well as his clutchness/toughness. |
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Post by Ring on Mar 21, 2024 22:46:02 GMT -5
How can you say that with 100% certainty? What if you replaced him with playoff choker James Harden? How about Luka who you claim isn't a winning basketball player? Again, you're minimizing how good Murray is, especially in the playoffs. Go find me all the guards in NBA history to post 25/5/5 on 45/40/90 shooting. Post that list. Thanks. Find me the list of point guards that got to play alongside a center averaging a 30 point triple double with a steal and a block per game on 55/46/80 shooting. Thanks. Nothing Jamal has ever done has been without Jokic's influence on the game working in his favor. But we've seen Jokic play ridiculously well in the playoffs without Jamal, with hobbled MPJ, and without MPJ. Again, instead of answering my question you deflect. We can't call John Stockton an all time great because he played his entire career with Karl Malone. Got it. Murray has literally outplayed Jokic in NUMEROUS playoff series. You just minimize the value of Murray. It's embarrassing. Will age as poorly as your Luka take. |
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Post by Ring on Mar 21, 2024 22:47:02 GMT -5
Without counting this year, Denver Nuggets were +4341 with and -3144. Per 48 min that is +11.54 with Jokić and -11.23. I am scared to even check this season because it only adds up on that. Denver Nuggets are Jokic in every way, shape or form. When he retires, god knows when, or if this franchise gets a 20% of Jokic caliber player again. Not to mention champioship/s... To think that Malone, Jamal, MPJ, Gordon, KCP would do what they do and have the status in the NBA that they have without Jokic is laughable. As many flaws as Jamal has in typical point guard duties, i cant think of a better pair for Jokic than him. MPJ is an awesome floor spacing shooter, but would gladly have OG + bench piece instead. AG is a perfect 4 man for Jokic, much better than Millsap or Grant, on both ends of the floor (when he is not in Orlando mode) KCP is an ultimate professional and a perfect 5th low usage rate 3&D guard that we needed instead of Barton. Starting 5 is perfect. But the moment any of them are without Jokic on the floor. Everyone looks lost. Coaches, players, everyone. It's embarrassing for NBA team to look that bad and it's been for years now. So, when Jokic (who is playing 70+ games per season every year) is in load manage mode, i will NEVER call him out. In the playoffs it's entirely different story (And he just had one of the most dominant playoff performance in NBA history). The bottom line, good game or bad game, is Jokic knows what he’s doing at all times. And his bad games like the one in Dallas are few and far between. This is really the first year that Jokic has actually had bad games. He shot under 50% 3 times last year. This 4 year stretch this is the year where he's had the most bad games and it's been by a pretty big margin too, which is crazy to say because he's probably had 5-6 bad games this season. |
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Post by passtheballquick on Mar 21, 2024 22:47:04 GMT -5
Also if we're being fair and going to accept that most of those playoff results are likely without Murray (where else is Jokic getting a PG with those playoff numbers)...Jokic would be looked at similar to Embiid. An all time great talent that has under achieved in the playoffs. It's a tough pill to swallow for you guys but it's pretty much a fact. Jokic doesn't win anything without Murray, just like Kobe doesn't win anything without Shaq/Pau, Lebron doesn't win anything without Wade/Kyrie/AD, etc. Lol, Embiid played with Jimmy Buttler who's 2x better player than any Nugget not named Jokic, James Harden, Ben Simmons when he was good, and probably 5 more other players that were 5x better than, Facu, Morris, Barton, Plumlee, Craig and other losers |
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Post by famicommander on Mar 21, 2024 22:47:40 GMT -5
It's like you never watched any of the other 10 best guys ever play a game. Do you think Jordan played his entire career at his peak level of engagement? Do you think LeBron never settles for bad jumpers when things aren't going his way? Even Tim Duncan wasn't Tim Duncan every single night. No, I think that when Kobe made it a point to not take shots and instead over-pass, Laker fans were fair to complain. Just like Nugget fans are fair to complain when Jokic doesn't play with great effort. Find me posts where I complain about Jokic having a bad shooting night or having bad turnovers. I'll just say he played poorly. I complain when he has zero interest in scoring because it makes everyone elses job on the team much more difficult. Did it occur to you that he was trying to make other players develop their games and step up so they're ready in situations he literally can't bail them out of? Did it occur to you that sometimes he's getting his rest where he can because unlike MPJ and Murray, he never misses games? Did it occur to you that we're going to get the 1 seed anyway and these complaints you have are all about small portions of meaningless regular season games? The negativity in this thread in general (not just from you specifically) is pretty comical considering we won all four quarters against a really good team tonight and we've won 13/15 with the losses coming in OT and on a buzzer beater respectively. |
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Post by Ring on Mar 21, 2024 22:51:44 GMT -5
No, I think that when Kobe made it a point to not take shots and instead over-pass, Laker fans were fair to complain. Just like Nugget fans are fair to complain when Jokic doesn't play with great effort. Find me posts where I complain about Jokic having a bad shooting night or having bad turnovers. I'll just say he played poorly. I complain when he has zero interest in scoring because it makes everyone elses job on the team much more difficult. Did it occur to you that he was trying to make other players develop their games and step up so they're ready in situations he literally can't bail them out of? Did it occur to you that sometimes he's getting his rest where he can because unlike MPJ and Murray, he never misses games? Did it occur to you that we're going to get the 1 seed anyway and these complaints you have are all about small portions of meaningless regular season games? The negativity in this thread in general (not just from you specifically) is pretty comical considering we won all four quarters against a really good team tonight and we've won 13/15 with the losses coming in OT and on a buzzer beater respectively. Again, you're painting a picture where you're just not allowed to criticize Jokic. If he isn't playing with effort it's because he's preserving himself. If he's passive it's because he's trying to get others involved. Literally anything he does there is an excuse for. Criticize Jokic like you would any other superstar. That's my point. |
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Post by Ring on Mar 21, 2024 22:52:46 GMT -5
Also if we're being fair and going to accept that most of those playoff results are likely without Murray (where else is Jokic getting a PG with those playoff numbers)...Jokic would be looked at similar to Embiid. An all time great talent that has under achieved in the playoffs. It's a tough pill to swallow for you guys but it's pretty much a fact. Jokic doesn't win anything without Murray, just like Kobe doesn't win anything without Shaq/Pau, Lebron doesn't win anything without Wade/Kyrie/AD, etc. Lol, Embiid played with Jimmy Buttler who's 2x better player than any Nugget not named Jokic, James Harden, Ben Simmons when he was good, and probably 5 more other players that were 5x better than, Facu, Morris, Barton, Plumlee, Craig and other losers To be fair to Embiid he only played with Butler 1 year and IMO they win it all if not for that Kawhi shot. That Philly team was f***ing stacked. |
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Post by GBG on Mar 21, 2024 22:53:01 GMT -5
The bottom line, good game or bad game, is Jokic knows what he’s doing at all times. And his bad games like the one in Dallas are few and far between. This is really the first year that Jokic has actually had bad games. He shot under 50% 3 times last year. This 4 year stretch this is the year where he's had the most bad games and it's been by a pretty big margin too, which is crazy to say because he's probably had 5-6 bad games this season. But try to think of why that is. Jokic has had more variability in his games, IMO, because he’s load managing himself more than ever due to having to play at championship level into June 2023. That takes a toll. It means Jokic, who won’t skip a game, will see himself less effective more than before. He’s played a LOT. And he compensates for more down games by playing overall at the same insane level that has won him 2 MVPs and will likely win him a third. |
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Post by Dante on Mar 21, 2024 22:53:28 GMT -5
I dont care. Just give me Kings round 1, Pels round 2, OKC WCF and whoever in the finals = Back to back babyyyyyyyyyyy
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Post by Ring on Mar 21, 2024 22:54:50 GMT -5
This is really the first year that Jokic has actually had bad games. He shot under 50% 3 times last year. This 4 year stretch this is the year where he's had the most bad games and it's been by a pretty big margin too, which is crazy to say because he's probably had 5-6 bad games this season. But try to think of why that is. Jokic has had more variability in his games, IMO, because he’s load managing himself more than ever due to having to play at championship level into June 2023. That takes a toll. It means Jokic, who won’t skip a game, will see himself less effective more than before. He’s played a LOT. And he compensate for more down games by playing overall at the same insane level that has won him 2 MVPS and will likely win him a third. Ehhh I honestly think some of it is bad luck and some of it is his jumper isn't as consistent as it's been in previous years. That's really the only difference I see tbh. This has been his best defensive year by far IMO. He's been consistently great on that end for basically the whole season. So his offense may suffer from that from time to time as well. His effort level on defense this year has been A+. Have yet to see anything close to the Spurs game last year lol |
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Post by Ring on Mar 21, 2024 22:56:15 GMT -5
I dont care. Just give me Kings round 1, Pels round 2, OKC WCF and whoever in the finals = Back to back babyyyyyyyyyyy Only way that is happening is if Denver gets the 2 seed. OKC is not beating Minnesota in a playoff series. |
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Post by Ring on Mar 21, 2024 22:56:53 GMT -5
Bed time for me. Lets all unite under the following premise: Reggie needs to pass more and make quicker reads in the 2 man game. Amen.
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Post by jimijam28 on Mar 21, 2024 23:13:49 GMT -5
yawn- we won-
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Post by sawyeral on Mar 21, 2024 23:25:44 GMT -5
It's not hilarious it's true. Jokic +24, Murray 0. It would have been the same if Mike plays with the bench. On the other side Prime Jordan and LBJ together would get swept in the second round playing with Facu, Barton and Morris. But you're blind to see it Murray plays a lot of his minutes with Christian Braun, Peyton Watson and DJ. Jokic plays most of his minutes with Murray, KCP, MPJ and AG. Murray is basically being asked to carry a Facu/Barton/Monte group. It's nearly impossible. This is a very fair point. Btw, it is ok to criticize anyone. My issue is with how dramatically you do it. Jokic makes a bad pass in the 1st quarter and you go on a profanity laced tirade about how gutless or pathetic he is. On no planet is that fair criticism. |
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Post by JB on Mar 21, 2024 23:40:44 GMT -5
yes, the Oilers won. I see you finally hopped on the bandwagon. |
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Post by famicommander on Mar 21, 2024 23:46:09 GMT -5
Coming into tonight, Jamal has played the following percentage of his minutes with each player
Jokic - 74%
Porter - 73%
Gordon - 69%
KCP - 64%
Watson - 35%
Braun - 30%
Reggie - 18%
Joker's percentages:
KCP - 79%
Porter - 78%
Gordon - 75%
Murray - 54%
Reggie - 37%
Braun - 24%
Watson - 22%
The difference really isn't that drastic. The biggest difference is that Joker gets KCP a lot more than Jamal. But Jamal has played 74% of his minutes with Jokic, while Jokic has had to play 46% of his minutes with Reggie/Braun/Gillespie/Pickett running the point.
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Post by duh88 on Mar 22, 2024 4:22:47 GMT -5
Jamal Murray with three 50+ point games to will us to victory against Utah.
40 point game in game 7 against clippers.
20 point 4th quarter against spurs playoffs.
Basically won Game 2 and 3 against lakers in WCF.
Obviously jokic is the best player on the team -
But when it’s playoff time, there isn’t a better guard in the league than Jamal Murray.
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Post by somborshuffle on Mar 22, 2024 4:25:33 GMT -5
Yeah Jamal is amazing.
The guy is a pure winner with a long history of performing when it matters most.
Steph and Luka are the only guards who you would/might take over him come playoffs.
No one else has an argument at this stage.
Which is quite the compliment to Jamal because the guard talent is at an all-time high.
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