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Post by LotharBraunBrownBryant on Oct 26, 2023 21:32:37 GMT -5
Embiid got outrebounded by Dame lol
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Post by famicommander on Oct 26, 2023 23:44:18 GMT -5
Eric Gordon 15 points on 16 FG/8 3PA, -27, 0 AST, 2 REB, 2 PF, 2 TO
Suns: 16 assists, 20 TO
Suns were +10 with Goodwin, the closest thing to a point guard on their roster, on the floor. But he won't be in the rotation when Booker and Beal play because for some reason people still think Eric Gordon is an NBA player. Durant +20, but 8 of those turnovers were his.
EDIT:
they updated Gordon's statline hours after the game to include an extra turnover and an extra -2
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Post by Coach Sticky on Oct 27, 2023 1:11:02 GMT -5
Stopping all 3 of them on defense is going to be quite difficult. They will almost always have at least 2 of them on the court at all times Braun on Booker KCP on Beal AG on KD |
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Post by freakns on Oct 27, 2023 4:34:55 GMT -5
Just because someone isn't a traditional prototype at the point guard position doesn't mean they aren't a point guard. If you're the primary ball handler AND primary playmaker AND you cover the other team's point guard, you're the point guard. Curry is a point guard, Luka is a point guard. Career assist to turnover ratio: Curry: 6.5-3.1 Luka: 8.0-4.0 Booker: 4.8-3.1 Beal: 4.3-2.5 There's a huge, huge difference. Booker does not have the vision or the passing to be a full time point guard and it's going to cost the Suns turnovers all year long. Their offense will never be anything more than Beal, Booker, and Durant taking turns running iso or PNR sets. Beal is a worse ball handler and a worse passer than Booker and their coach says the two will split the point guard duties. I think the Suns are legitimately worse than they were last season. soooooo Jokic is point guard? I know English is not my first language and I might be completely wrong here, but I think you have no idea what point guard is. what you should have said is: "Booker does not have the vision or the passing to be a full time initiator of offense", not full time point guard. but I can even go with your stats, just to prove my point even further. Ron Harper, 5 time NBA champion and starting point guard on all those 5 championship teams, career assist to turnover ratio: 3.9-2.2 I guess you should call NBA and ask them to strip 3 titles from Bulls and 2 from Lakers cause they started a guy who didn't have vision or the passing to be full time point guard. then call Tex Winter and explain to him that triangle offense will never work with Jordan or Kobe cause you need to have full time point guard to initiate it. you cant do it with shooting guards with great ball handling skills. then finally, you need to call NBA again, and ask them to cancel this Nuggets title, cause you can't win titles without good. athletic rim protector at center position. |
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Post by Coach Sticky on Oct 27, 2023 5:21:09 GMT -5
^ this guy is spitting facts man
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Post by LotharBraunBrownBryant on Oct 27, 2023 10:17:21 GMT -5
If you're the primary ball handler AND primary playmaker AND you cover the other team's point guard, you're the point guard. soooooo Ron Harper, 5 time NBA champion and starting point guard on all those 5 championship teams Ron Harper wasn't the primary ball handler or playmaker. On the 96 bulls, he was 4th in assists per game behind Pippen, Jordan, and Kukoc. The 97 bulls, he was fifth behind those 3 plus Rodman. The 98 bulls he was basically tied with Rodman for 4th/5th. On the 99 Lakers he was third behind Kobe and Shaq, and on the 2000 lakers he was 6th in the regular season and on the edge of the playoff rotation as the 9th man of an 8-man rotation. So by fami's definition, he wouldn't be the point guard. He'd be just a generic guard, while Pippen was the point forward or Kobe was the point guard. And a team would be in big trouble if Ron Harper was the primary ball handler and playmaker. Like if you had 3 guys with Ron Harper level PG skills and none with better PG skills, your team would be a turnover-prone mess. On the Nuggets, Jokic is the primary ball handler and playmaker, while KCP guards the point guard usually. But Mal is easily the #2 ball handler and playmaker and also often guards PGs, so he's like ... point-guard-ish. Definitely takes on a lot more of that role than Harper did in his championship years. A team wouldn't be in trouble if Jamal was the primary ball handler and playmaker. How the Suns will fare with 3 guys who are more like Ron Harper in terms of creating-for-others but who are also elite iso players ... IDK. |
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Post by sawyeral on Oct 27, 2023 12:44:58 GMT -5
Stopping all 3 of them on defense is going to be quite difficult. They will almost always have at least 2 of them on the court at all times You don't have to stop 3 of them at a time because there's only one ball and none of them are good passers. Like I said, they're just going to take turns going iso or pick and roll. That's literally all they can do. This is what I’ve already noticed with them. There’s a concerted effort early in games where they share the ball, but I think when things are tight, they’ll each do what they’ve made a career of…isolate and find their spot. There will be nights where they’ll make it look easy and score 140 points. Other nights it’ll look like a grind. Either way, KD is gonna break down if last nights game is an indication of how hard he’ll need to play during the RS. |
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Post by famicommander on Oct 27, 2023 13:06:19 GMT -5
Just because someone isn't a traditional prototype at the point guard position doesn't mean they aren't a point guard. If you're the primary ball handler AND primary playmaker AND you cover the other team's point guard, you're the point guard. Curry is a point guard, Luka is a point guard. Career assist to turnover ratio: Curry: 6.5-3.1 Luka: 8.0-4.0 Booker: 4.8-3.1 Beal: 4.3-2.5 There's a huge, huge difference. Booker does not have the vision or the passing to be a full time point guard and it's going to cost the Suns turnovers all year long. Their offense will never be anything more than Beal, Booker, and Durant taking turns running iso or PNR sets. Beal is a worse ball handler and a worse passer than Booker and their coach says the two will split the point guard duties. I think the Suns are legitimately worse than they were last season. soooooo Jokic is point guard? I know English is not my first language and I might be completely wrong here, but I think you have no idea what point guard is. what you should have said is: "Booker does not have the vision or the passing to be a full time initiator of offense", not full time point guard. but I can even go with your stats, just to prove my point even further. Ron Harper, 5 time NBA champion and starting point guard on all those 5 championship teams, career assist to turnover ratio: 3.9-2.2 I guess you should call NBA and ask them to strip 3 titles from Bulls and 2 from Lakers cause they started a guy who didn't have vision or the passing to be full time point guard. then call Tex Winter and explain to him that triangle offense will never work with Jordan or Kobe cause you need to have full time point guard to initiate it. you cant do it with shooting guards with great ball handling skills. then finally, you need to call NBA again, and ask them to cancel this Nuggets title, cause you can't win titles without good. athletic rim protector at center position. Jamal is the primary ball handler for the Nuggets and he generally covers the other team's point guard. He's not the primary playmaker but he would be if Jokic weren't an otherworldly freak. Kobe always had Derek Fisher who was a point guard. Not a traditionally great playmaker but a great, low-turnover ball handler. The Bulls were great enough to pull it off with Michael Jordan 25 years ago. That's fine. The Suns don't have a Michael Jordan and it's 2023. They have 39 assists and 39 turnovers through 2 games. |
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Post by freakns on Oct 27, 2023 13:09:09 GMT -5
I dont disagree with anything you've said. Ron Harper was positionally point guard. However, he didn't initiate the offense, so he wasn't true point guard. Again, we are going back to Tex Winter triangle offense. You may watch Bulls games from 90s and you will see three main ways they've attack others. Transition, ISO ball from Jordan and rarely from Pippen and finally triangle offense initiated by either Jordan or Pippen with Kukoc as third guy. Biggest advantage of this offense for Bulls, and why others couldn't copy, was that all three guys could play at low post. During Lakers years that was a bit different cause Shaq was unstoppable force on low post...
Whole point is, those Jackson's teams with Tex Winter handling offense didn't require traditional point guard. They were running sets, so they needed guys capable of ball handling, not one guy organize everything. Jordan, Kukoc and Pippen were all excellent ball handlers, and as you've said, three of them initiate offense. Harper, while being theoretically point guard, was there primary as perimeter defender.
Going back to these days and Phoenix Suns, Booker, Beal and Durant are all excellent ball handlers, so they need offensive sets to function, not traditional point guard.
As for Nuggets, they are definition of positionless basketball. Theoretically, Jamal is PG, KCP SG, MPJ SF, AG PF, Jokic C, but overall, Nuggets have 4 excellent ball handlers(minus MPJ) and offense is running through Jokic, but not only Jokic isn't point guard, he actually isn't point center. Jokic will initiate offense as guard from inverter pnr, then he will initiate offense from high post as point forward, then he will do it from low post as point center... When they run inverted pnr, Jamal or AG will be screeners. When they run from high post, AG will be center and Jamal will act as guard or even as forward, and when he is on low post everyone will held their natural position... so basically, outside of MPJ who plays as forward all the time, rest are changing traditional positions all the time, ie. playing positionless basketball. btw, thats true positionless basketball, not having 5 wings who can guard and switch everything, something Celtics are doing.
EDIT: @lothar
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Post by famicommander on Oct 27, 2023 13:10:39 GMT -5
Booker, Durant, and Beal are not excellent ball handlers. Durant and Beal are below average and Booker has moves, but also a tun of turnovers. The Suns are going to lead the NBA in turnovers this year.
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Post by LotharBraunBrownBryant on Oct 27, 2023 13:23:46 GMT -5
Going back to these days and Phoenix Suns, Booker, Beal and Durant are all excellent ball handlers, so they need offensive sets to function, not traditional point guard The issue is that they're not really excellent ball handlers. They're all like ... OK ball handlers. It's possible they could have offensive sets that work for them and keep the turnovers down, but I think turnovers are going to be a problem for them no matter what offensive system they run. |
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Post by famicommander on Oct 27, 2023 13:26:21 GMT -5
Look at the last 20 NBA champs and their point guards
Nugs - Murray
Warriors - Curry
Bucks - Holiday
Lakers - Rondo
Raptors - Lowry
Warriors - Curry
Warriors - Curry
Cavs - Irving
Warriors - Curry
Spurs - Parker
Heat - Chalmers
Heat - Chalmers
Mavs - Kidd
Lakers - Fisher
Lakers - Fisher
Celtics - Rondo
Spurs - Parker
Heat - Williams
Spurs - Parker
Pistons - Billups
Not one of those dudes is a high turnover shooting guard pretending to be a point guard.
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Post by famicommander on Oct 27, 2023 15:10:36 GMT -5
I think the Warriors should consider Jack White. They're carrying only 13 guys right now for cap purposes, but by rule they'll have to get up to at least 14 soon and stay there the rest of the season. They could really use the rebounding he brings, especially if Draymond will miss significant time, and he'll come at a minimum or near-minimum price which fits into their cap hell situation.
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Post by rock on Oct 27, 2023 17:02:23 GMT -5
I think the Warriors should consider Jack White. They're carrying only 13 guys right now for cap purposes, but by rule they'll have to get up to at least 14 soon and stay there the rest of the season. They could really use the rebounding he brings, especially if Draymond will miss significant time, and he'll come at a minimum or near-minimum price which fits into their cap hell situation. They could also use someone with championship experience |
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Post by famicommander on Oct 28, 2023 3:07:21 GMT -5
y'all see that nonsense shot Luka hit?
That's the kinda s**t where you just take your "H" in horse without even attempting it yourself.
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Post by BBBbbb on Oct 28, 2023 14:25:49 GMT -5
y'all see that nonsense shot Luka hit? That's the kinda s**t where you just take your "H" in horse without even attempting it yourself. Similarly to Jokic, he has those ridiculous shots in his arsenal. He’s been killing it these two games. |
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Post by famicommander on Oct 28, 2023 14:35:44 GMT -5
Heat not even pretending to hide that they're mailing the game in. Today's inactives:
Jimmy Butler (rest)
Kevin Love (shoulder)
Haywood Highsmith (knee)
Caleb Martin (knee)
Josh Richardson (foot)
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Post by nuggetshipster on Oct 28, 2023 16:58:13 GMT -5
y'all see that nonsense shot Luka hit? That's the kinda s**t where you just take your "H" in horse without even attempting it yourself. Similarly to Jokic, he has those ridiculous shots in his arsenal. He’s been killing it these two games. KMart said a few days before that Kyrie is better than Luka. Is there a more racist former NBA player? Probably a few from the 60s maybe but stil |
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Post by scooter on Oct 28, 2023 17:46:31 GMT -5
How the Suns will fare with 3 guys who are more like Ron Harper in terms of creating-for-others but who are also elite iso players ... IDK. I’ve yet to see the 23-24 Suns play but based on what I’ve seen in the past, I’ve thought that Booker and Beal were similar to Murray as playmakers. But they don’t have Jokic (or CP3 or some other true PG) and Murray appears to have elevated the point guarding aspect of his game. The Suns are going to be a super interesting experiment this season. |
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Post by GBG on Oct 28, 2023 18:01:58 GMT -5
How the Suns will fare with 3 guys who are more like Ron Harper in terms of creating-for-others but who are also elite iso players ... IDK. I’ve yet to see the 23-24 Suns play but based on what I’ve seen in the past, I’ve thought that Booker and Beal were similar to Murray as playmakers. But they don’t have Jokic (or CP3 or some other true PG) and Murray appears to have elevated the point guarding aspect of his game. The Suns are going to be a super interesting experiment this season. Nobody else who has watched every minute of Suns games so far have seen the 23-24 Suns (as envisioned) either. Booker, Durant, and Beal have yet to play together. |
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