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Post by Ring on Nov 8, 2024 15:53:14 GMT -5
TL:DR, but here’s my take - We who thought that enough American voters would be rational and see through deceptive advertising and demagoguery to keep Trump from winning were wrong. More American voters than I expected are, by and large, one or more of these things… 1) Irrational. 2) Misogynistic. 3) Racist. 4) Simple-minded. 5) Vote for the more entertaining candidate. 6) Vote on name recognition. 7) Struggling and look to blame incumbents, who are their scapegoats. 8) Filled with some blend of hate, anger, and resentment. This was still basically a 50/50 popular vote split nationwide once all votes are counted. The electoral college system distorts the message that the median voter is sending, like a funhouse mirror image distorts the human body. I am sure the median voter doesn’t want Elon Musk coming into the executive branch to slash and burn the federal government by $2 trillion as he’s promised. I’m confident the median voter doesn’t want Project 2025 provisions enacted. And I’m sure that the median voter doesn’t have any or many of the eight bugs in their brains that I listed above. Even soft Trump voters, near the median, aren’t necessarily any of the terrible things I described. But more voters than I expected are. Finally, betting markets are still manipulated and participated in by a heavy skew of Republicans or those overseas who would be Republicans. Don’t confuse correlation/causation. The short answer is most people are uneducated. Like that's what it really comes down to. Go have conversations with every day people right now and ask them about tariffs. They think tariffs are going to be good for our economy. Like when you're dealing with people who can't even comprehend how or why tariffs are going to harm the US economy, how are you supposed to put any credibility into their vote? Go ask them about Trumps tax cuts. They'll brag about them and say how great they were and how much more money was in their check 4 years ago without understanding that they are literally still in effect today. You have to understand that most people are uneducated and don't care to learn more. Once you understand that you come to realize that most people will vote for the candidate they relate to most and find most charismatic. When the perception of the country is that it's in terrible shape, the incumbent is never going to win. You guys know where I stood on both candidates. I think they were/are both historically bad candidates. But what drives me f***ing nuts is when I keep hearing people say how much the economy is going to improve, how Biden killed the economy, etc. Then I ask them to name a policy that Biden implemented or took away that harmed the economy. They can't name one. It's infuriating. Again, most people are very uneducated on most topics and don't care to gain knowledge. Once you learn to accept that you have a much clearer view on why society is the way it is. |
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Post by GBG on Nov 8, 2024 16:15:04 GMT -5
TL:DR, but here’s my take - We who thought that enough American voters would be rational and see through deceptive advertising and demagoguery to keep Trump from winning were wrong. More American voters than I expected are, by and large, one or more of these things… 1) Irrational. 2) Misogynistic. 3) Racist. 4) Simple-minded. 5) Vote for the more entertaining candidate. 6) Vote on name recognition. 7) Struggling and look to blame incumbents, who are their scapegoats. 8) Filled with some blend of hate, anger, and resentment. This was still basically a 50/50 popular vote split nationwide once all votes are counted. The electoral college system distorts the message that the median voter is sending, like a funhouse mirror image distorts the human body. I am sure the median voter doesn’t want Elon Musk coming into the executive branch to slash and burn the federal government by $2 trillion as he’s promised. I’m confident the median voter doesn’t want Project 2025 provisions enacted. And I’m sure that the median voter doesn’t have any or many of the eight bugs in their brains that I listed above. Even soft Trump voters, near the median, aren’t necessarily any of the terrible things I described. But more voters than I expected are. Finally, betting markets are still manipulated and participated in by a heavy skew of Republicans or those overseas who would be Republicans. Don’t confuse correlation/causation. The short answer is most people are uneducated. Like that's what it really comes down to. Go have conversations with every day people right now and ask them about tariffs. They think tariffs are going to be good for our economy. Like when you're dealing with people who can't even comprehend how or why tariffs are going to harm the US economy, how are you supposed to put any credibility into their vote? Go ask them about Trumps tax cuts. They'll brag about them and say how great they were and how much more money was in their check 4 years ago without understanding that they are literally still in effect today. You have to understand that most people are uneducated and don't care to learn more. Once you understand that you come to realize that most people will vote for the candidate they relate to most and find most charismatic. When the perception of the country is that it's in terrible shape, the incumbent is never going to win. You guys know where I stood on both candidates. I think they were/are both historically bad candidates. But what drives me f***ing nuts is when I keep hearing people say how much the economy is going to improve, how Biden killed the economy, etc. Then I ask them to name a policy that Biden implemented or took away that harmed the economy. They can't name one. It's infuriating. Again, most people are very uneducated on most topics and don't care to gain knowledge. Once you learn to accept that you have a much clearer view on why society is the way it is. There is a lot of truth in that. Read this article today that gives a powerful and yet simple explanation for why the election went the way it did. My short synopsis: Ignorant minds are easily propagandized to and believe what they consume in legacy and online right wing media, which is fairly unified in messaging and spread wildly misleading information or outright disinformation. Great article!… newrepublic.com/post/188197/trump-media-information-landscape-fox |
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Post by Ring on Nov 8, 2024 16:25:48 GMT -5
The short answer is most people are uneducated. Like that's what it really comes down to. Go have conversations with every day people right now and ask them about tariffs. They think tariffs are going to be good for our economy. Like when you're dealing with people who can't even comprehend how or why tariffs are going to harm the US economy, how are you supposed to put any credibility into their vote? Go ask them about Trumps tax cuts. They'll brag about them and say how great they were and how much more money was in their check 4 years ago without understanding that they are literally still in effect today. You have to understand that most people are uneducated and don't care to learn more. Once you understand that you come to realize that most people will vote for the candidate they relate to most and find most charismatic. When the perception of the country is that it's in terrible shape, the incumbent is never going to win. You guys know where I stood on both candidates. I think they were/are both historically bad candidates. But what drives me f***ing nuts is when I keep hearing people say how much the economy is going to improve, how Biden killed the economy, etc. Then I ask them to name a policy that Biden implemented or took away that harmed the economy. They can't name one. It's infuriating. Again, most people are very uneducated on most topics and don't care to gain knowledge. Once you learn to accept that you have a much clearer view on why society is the way it is. There is a lot of truth in that. Read this article today that gives a powerful and yet simple explanation for why the election went the way it did. My short synopsis: Ignorant minds are easily propagandized to and believe what they consume in legacy and online right wing media, which is fairly unified in messaging and spread wildly misleading information or outright disinformation. Great article!… newrepublic.com/post/188197/trump-media-information-landscape-foxYoung people are also very easy to manipulate and fool because they don't have the life experience to sift out that bullshit. Unfortunately it takes bad experiences to realize that stuff that sounds too good to be true usually is just that. I always have based this election and my thought that Trump was going to win fairly easy based off my own experiences with people. I've had conversations with many different people and in those conversations I realized that the country is just in really bad shape. Maybe it's always been like this and I just haven't really noticed. I mean there have been many skits done that show how a good majority of people have no idea what policies Democrats or Republicans even support. It's a shame. It's why I've always felt that you should have to pass a basic political knowledge exam in order to vote but at that same time, you'd be taking rights away from Americans. Unfortunately the election system isn't perfect. People aren't perfect. All we can do at this point is hope that Trump and his team surprise us all and do improve the country. Do I think that's going to happen? Of course not. But I still hope it does. Trump talks a big game and a lot of the stuff he says sound great in theory (capping credit card interest at 10% for example). Can he implement that and if so do it without harming consumers? I highly doubt it. But if he did pull that off I'd be the first one to say that he did something great for the American people. I hope he does great. I just don't think he can if he implements the policies that have been rumored (tariffs, mass deportation, etc) |
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Post by LotharBraunBrownBryant on Nov 8, 2024 17:05:38 GMT -5
Like when you're dealing with people who can't even comprehend how or why tariffs are going to harm the US economy ....Then I ask them to name a policy that Biden implemented or took away that harmed the economy. They can't name one. And, likewise, I'm betting zero of the people here talking about how dumb Trump voters are have any awareness of the tariffs currently in place. See, for example, x.com/GaryWinslett/status/1854910738822766820 for a short list. So, yeah, Trump voters are uneducated and don't understand the problem with tariffs and can't name Biden policies that hurt the economy, but move out of the glass house first. If the Biden administration had cut a bunch of tariffs and said "watch how this helps the economy", possibly even eating crow and saying "we implemented this tariff and it turned out to be bad and we learned our lesson; Trump hasn't learned the lesson though", all of a sudden now you have a way to reach voters who don't understand tariffs and show them practically the outcome. |
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Post by LotharBraunBrownBryant on Nov 8, 2024 17:51:17 GMT -5
This reads like someone who gets their information about right-wing media thirdhand. It presumes a level of unity between Rogan, Elon, Fox, OANN, Breitbart, etc. that has never existed. I spent a lot of time during COVID interacting with stuff coming out of all of those different areas, and it wasn't unified. The reason I was so prepared when duh was like "here's this COVID thing I heard" was that people on the right and people following right-wing sources were constantly bringing up a huge variety of different stuff, because those different groups were all approaching things differently (and often disagreeing with each other.) So on top of all of my own independent science research, I was constantly being exposed to all kinds of "here's a study our subgroup is circulating". I reached ~2500 science papers I critically assessed over 2 and a half years before it stopped being important enough to devote that much time to, and way more of them originally came from right-wingers who wanted to argue about them than from left or legacy-media sources. Each subgroup often misunderstood what they brought up, they were often bad at debating it (not 100% -- the alt-right was correct on a bunch of things that the legacy media and the medical establishment got wrong or was slower to come around on.) But the one thing they weren't was aggressively uniform or gatekeepy. That's one of the reason lefty sources have trouble taking off, IMO. Oh, you launched a brand new project to counteract right-wing disinformation? What content is it going to have? The exact same thing as CNN, MSNBC, and New Republic are already saying? How is that going to reach people who already don't trust those sources? Every single person I know who listens to Rogan expects other sources of information they listen to to regularly disagree. They hate gatekeeping and love variety. The variety contains a lot of stupid stuff, but also a lot of genuine disagreement. The left's problem isn't that their media isn't big enough, it's that they can't grow it bigger while also being gatekeepers who think they're the authorities and that anyone who doesn't fall in line is an uneducated rube who just needs to be told the same thing but louder. |
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Post by GBG on Nov 8, 2024 18:14:29 GMT -5
This reads like someone who gets their information about right-wing media thirdhand. It presumes a level of unity between Rogan, Elon, Fox, OANN, Breitbart, etc. that has never existed. I spent a lot of time during COVID interacting with stuff coming out of all of those different areas, and it wasn't unified. The reason I was so prepared when duh was like "here's this COVID thing I heard" was that people on the right and people following right-wing sources were constantly bringing up a huge variety of different stuff, because those different groups were all approaching things differently (and often disagreeing with each other.) So on top of all of my own independent science research, I was constantly being exposed to all kinds of "here's a study our subgroup is circulating". I reached ~2500 science papers I critically assessed over 2 and a half years before it stopped being important enough to devote that much time to, and way more of them originally came from right-wingers who wanted to argue about them than from left or legacy-media sources. Each subgroup often misunderstood what they brought up, they were often bad at debating it (not 100% -- the alt-right was correct on a bunch of things that the legacy media and the medical establishment got wrong or was slower to come around on.) But the one thing they weren't was aggressively uniform or gatekeepy. That's one of the reason lefty sources have trouble taking off, IMO. Oh, you launched a brand new project to counteract right-wing disinformation? What content is it going to have? The exact same thing as CNN, MSNBC, and New Republic are already saying? How is that going to reach people who already don't trust those sources? Every single person I know who listens to Rogan expects other sources of information they listen to to regularly disagree. They hate gatekeeping and love variety. The variety contains a lot of stupid stuff, but also a lot of genuine disagreement. The left's problem isn't that their media isn't big enough, it's that they can't grow it bigger while also being gatekeepers who think they're the authorities and that anyone who doesn't fall in line is an uneducated rube who just needs to be told the same thing but louder. Two things can be correct: 1) Right wing media outlets weren’t that well organized during 2020 Covid times, and it resulted in a variety of information and false narratives, and 2) right wing media has advanced over the past four years with alternative influencers being much bigger than before, and as a result were better organized to advance messages, narratives, and information, including both mis and dis. This article struck a chord with me. We have a vapid electorate that is propagandized to with a lot of nonsense via the advanced algorithms that exist today. Elon Musk’s X, all by itself, could have tipped the scales for Trump this time. His conspiracy theories (Biden importing illegals and placing them in swing states to vote for Democrats being his biggest whopper of a lie) reach social media apps well beyond X itself. It scared low information voters. After all, Elon is a genius so they say. And if he’s warning us of a one party state if Dems win in November, it must be true! American voter minds are like clay. They can be easily molded by very manipulative people. Musk, Thiel, Tucker Carlson, and Trump himself are the best manipulators America has ever seen, in a very evil sort of way. Joe Rogan too. Dems need to counteract this with the truth and with left-of-center Joe Rogan types of podcasters. I am not sure even one exists yet to match Rogan. |
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Post by LotharBraunBrownBryant on Nov 8, 2024 18:29:10 GMT -5
I'm still aware of the information coming out of the right and alt right. I keep an eye on some key sources, because part of my role is protecting people from mis/disinformation through honesty rather than gatekeeping or censorship. There's still a tremendous amount of argument/disagreement between them. On occasion a specific message blows up between Elon, Rogan, Tucker, and everyone else, but most of the time they're all kinda doing their own thing (and sometimes they're right and the legacy media is wrong.)
I do agree that Dems would do well with a left-of-center Joe Rogan type. The thing to understand is that Joe Rogan is kind of the ultimate anti-gatekeeper. JRE is called "experience" because the point is to experience all kinds of wild s**t. He has people on whose beliefs are total nonsense and everyone knows it, just because it's a trip to listen to those dudes talk for 2-3 hours. He regularly has guests on opposite sides, sometimes even 3 or more sides, of the same issues (not all at once like a panel, but like, over the course of several weeks.) He repeatedly offered to have Harris come on (again, anti-gatekeeper), which Ro Khanna (D-CA) says it was a strategic mistake for her to miss.
You can't replicate Joe Rogan by having someone who wants to be just as big but who only ever has establishment guests, carefully selected for the same agenda. You can only replicate Joe Rogan by actually wanting to hear a bunch of different stuff.
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Post by GBG on Nov 8, 2024 19:21:33 GMT -5
I'm still aware of the information coming out of the right and alt right. I keep an eye on some key sources, because part of my role is protecting people from mis/disinformation through honesty rather than gatekeeping or censorship. There's still a tremendous amount of argument/disagreement between them. On occasion a specific message blows up between Elon, Rogan, Tucker, and everyone else, but most of the time they're all kinda doing their own thing (and sometimes they're right and the legacy media is wrong.) I do agree that Dems would do well with a left-of-center Joe Rogan type. The thing to understand is that Joe Rogan is kind of the ultimate anti-gatekeeper. JRE is called "experience" because the point is to experience all kinds of wild s**t. He has people on whose beliefs are total nonsense and everyone knows it, just because it's a trip to listen to those dudes talk for 2-3 hours. He regularly has guests on opposite sides, sometimes even 3 or more sides, of the same issues (not all at once like a panel, but like, over the course of several weeks.) He repeatedly offered to have Harris come on (again, anti-gatekeeper), which Ro Khanna (D-CA) says it was a strategic mistake for her to miss. You can't replicate Joe Rogan by having someone who wants to be just as big but who only ever has establishment guests, carefully selected for the same agenda. You can only replicate Joe Rogan by actually wanting to hear a bunch of different stuff. I don’t listen to Joe Rogan as I’ve tried, and he’s both intellectually dishonest and lazy. I watched the 3 hour Trump interview, and it was softball after softball and letting Trump get away with gaslighting with no pushback. No thanks. This man could be the lefty Joe Rogan, he’s been on his show from what I understand… |
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Post by GBG on Nov 8, 2024 19:26:35 GMT -5
Here’s another very interesting and shorter Kulinski piece on Rogan. He calls out Joe for all his contradictions starting at 3:30 mark. I think Rogan is a complete flake and a phony…
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Post by LotharBraunBrownBryant on Nov 8, 2024 19:37:38 GMT -5
There are lots of valid criticisms of Joe Rogan. He isn't a scholar or a debater. "Intellectually lazy" is a fair take.
One thing he isn't is a gatekeeper. JRE isn't about "pushback" and not letting people get away with things. That's not the point of the podcast. He'll have his producer look up claims that sound wild, but he's not like "I'm here to push Donald Trump and play hardball." He doesn't do it to his left-leaning guests. He didn't try to debate Malone *or* Gupta, he just let them both present their positions. He doesn't try to force his guests to be honest or catch them by being better prepared and schooling them. He's not a "reporter" or "journalist" with the goal of digging into exactly what's true. He's a podcaster who wants to hear interesting things. That may not be your cup of tea, but it's not "dishonest" to be the Joe Rogan Experience instead of Joe Rogan Debates.
Another thing he isn't: right-wing. He's pro gay marriage, supports abortion, wants strong safety nets, calls for legal weed, wants UBI, and is pro-trans (and describes himself as a "bleeding heart liberal" on "most social issues".) He's got a couple of rightish positions (pro-military, pro-police, anti-vaccine-mandate) but not nearly as many. The main reason he gets accused of being right wing is that he's pro-free-speech (again, the anti-gatekeeper thing). He thinks censorship is bullshit and you should actually listen to people, even people who are flagrantly wrong. You already have left-wing Joe Rogan; his name is Joe Rogan. You just can't make pro-gatekeeping, pro-censorship Joe Rogan, because that's exactly the thing that makes Joe Rogan stand out.
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Post by GBG on Nov 8, 2024 20:22:07 GMT -5
There are lots of valid criticisms of Joe Rogan. He isn't a scholar or a debater. "Intellectually lazy" is a fair take. One thing he isn't is a gatekeeper. JRE isn't about "pushback" and not letting people get away with things. That's not the point of the podcast. He'll have his producer look up claims that sound wild, but he's not like "I'm here to push Donald Trump and play hardball." He doesn't do it to his left-leaning guests. He didn't try to debate Malone *or* Gupta, he just let them both present their positions. He doesn't try to force his guests to be honest or catch them by being better prepared and schooling them. He's not a "reporter" or "journalist" with the goal of digging into exactly what's true. He's a podcaster who wants to hear interesting things. That may not be your cup of tea, but it's not "dishonest" to be the Joe Rogan Experience instead of Joe Rogan Debates. Another thing he isn't: right-wing. He's pro gay marriage, supports abortion, wants strong safety nets, calls for legal weed, wants UBI, and is pro-trans (and describes himself as a "bleeding heart liberal" on "most social issues".) He's got a couple of rightish positions (pro-military, pro-police, anti-vaccine-mandate) but not nearly as many. The main reason he gets accused of being right wing is that he's pro-free-speech (again, the anti-gatekeeper thing). He thinks censorship is bullshit and you should actually listen to people, even people who are flagrantly wrong. You already have left-wing Joe Rogan; his name is Joe Rogan. You just can't make pro-gatekeeping, pro-censorship Joe Rogan, because that's exactly the thing that makes Joe Rogan stand out. Did you watch the second video I posted? You don’t have to repeat the left or progressive positions he’s taken in the past. It’s all in that video starting at the 3:30 mark, and Kyle’s point about Joe is that this same “bleeding heart liberal” who wants UBI and M4A just endorsed the one candidate who makes those policy initiatives impossible. And he did it the night before Election Day! Sounds like a giant grift to me. Joe’s wealth and Joe’s low tax rates seem to supercede Joe’s social and economic progressive ideas. Hence, he’s phony. And a flake. And don’t fall into the trap that he’s no gatekeeper. Of course he is. Any show that gets as many viewers as Rogan does will have lots of potential guests clamoring to be invited on. He and his staff get to pick and choose who to invite onto his pod. That’s a huge amount of power. Rogan can’t tell his audience what to think. But he darn well can manipulate them into what to think ABOUT. |
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Post by TNF on Nov 8, 2024 20:27:52 GMT -5
Cultists.
Dumb as a stone.
Will believe ANYTHING someone says if that person presents it with a juvenile sixth grade maturity which they find humorous
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Post by LotharBraunBrownBryant on Nov 8, 2024 20:51:03 GMT -5
Any show that gets as many viewers as Rogan does will have lots of potential guests clamoring to be invited on. He and his staff get to pick and choose who to invite onto his pod. And what he uses that power for is to continue to bring on a huge variety of guests with very different views. Guests who disagree with each other. Guests on opposite sides, or more than 2 sides, of significant cultural issues. Guests who have totally wacky views. Because his core approach with JRE is that sort of wild and crazy variety. Which, as I noted, is fundamentally very different from someone whose goal is to be "the liberal Joe Rogan" or "the conservative Joe Rogan", whose agenda is about a singular viewpoint. ... or, his commitment to free speech, which used to be considered a liberal idea, supercedes other ideas. Or his commitment to who knows what else. It's poor epistemic hygiene to cut off every possible alternative except for the least charitable one, and then jump to conclusions about that. |
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Post by GBG on Nov 8, 2024 21:10:28 GMT -5
Any show that gets as many viewers as Rogan does will have lots of potential guests clamoring to be invited on. He and his staff get to pick and choose who to invite onto his pod. And what he uses that power for is to continue to bring on a huge variety of guests with very different views. Guests who disagree with each other. Guests on opposite sides, or more than 2 sides, of significant cultural issues. Guests who have totally wacky views. Because his core approach with JRE is that sort of wild and crazy variety. Which, as I noted, is fundamentally very different from someone whose goal is to be "the liberal Joe Rogan" or "the conservative Joe Rogan", whose agenda is about a singular viewpoint. ... or, his commitment to free speech, which used to be considered a liberal idea, supercedes other ideas. Or his commitment to who knows what else. It's poor epistemic hygiene to cut off every possible alternative except for the least charitable one, and then jump to conclusions about that. Well, you reveal a little bit about yourself when you write free speech “used to be” a liberal idea. That’s a slight. Of course liberals believe in free speech. We just don’t believe in unedited, unfettered speech controlled by rich individuals with an agenda. Rogan endorsed Trump the night before Election Day. Full stop. He became political advocate and now will have to own whatever things happen the next few years that he had said he was against, or don’t happen that he said he was for. Be highly suspicious when rich people use the fig leaf of “FREE SPEECH!” to hide behind their selfish agendas and misinformation. You know, people like Elon Musk and, dare I say, Joe Rogan! |
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Post by LotharBraunBrownBryant on Nov 8, 2024 21:18:27 GMT -5
you reveal a little bit about yourself when you write free speech “used to be” a liberal idea. That’s a slight. Welp. It's poor epistemic hygiene to cut off every possible alternative except for the least charitable one, and then jump to conclusions about that. |
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Post by GBG on Nov 8, 2024 21:27:40 GMT -5
you reveal a little bit about yourself when you write free speech “used to be” a liberal idea. That’s a slight. Welp. It's poor epistemic hygiene to cut off every possible alternative except for the least charitable one, and then jump to conclusions about that. Don’t be passive aggressive with comments like that, and I will be more charitable. |
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Post by BBBbbb on Nov 9, 2024 7:57:59 GMT -5
Rogan has a huge audience and that comes with some responsibility like not having guests saying batshit crazy stuff and him nodding along being his usual yes-man. If there wasn't for Lex Freedman, he'd be the biggest guests' dick rider in the pod world.
He might not be right wing, but what draws him to those ppl is questing common beliefs and having unsubstantiated theories. Questioning is fine, the other part is what is dangerous. But hay it lets ppl have their own dumb opinions promoted as truth, like thinking nurse doesn't know how to apply vaccines and thinking they should do it the same way you are applying steroids to your ass for the past 20 years. Also it lets them consider fact checking as bias.
One more thing - while he was still a stand up, he was known as a vindictive prick and trying to get ppl out of industry if they made jokes about him.
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Post by jimijam28 on Nov 9, 2024 12:06:50 GMT -5
The dude was a host of fear factor that made people eat stupid s**t,know people are listening too him like he knows s**t lol
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Post by GBG on Nov 9, 2024 12:43:08 GMT -5
The dude was a host of fear factor that made people eat stupid s**t,know people are listening too him like he knows s**t lol His content is lowest common denominator garbage, which appeals to young lazy men who wanna grow up to be big and strong like him (even though he’s short, lol). |
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Post by TNF on Nov 9, 2024 12:53:33 GMT -5
Must watch IMO.
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