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Post by LotharBraunBrownBryant on Nov 1, 2024 11:09:51 GMT -5
there are many bipartisan neocon chickenhawks that advocate for endless death and destruction for the benefit of their arms manufacturer and military-industrial complex benefactors. see no downside to their imperialist wars of aggression because they never enlist and want other, poorer people to die on their behalf. nobody would bat an eye if AOC told Lindsay Graham to put on a tin hat and go fight the Ayatollah himself if he wants war with Iran so badly. Dude this is the stuff that genuinely scares me. Like the way these people talk and act makes you have to defend Trump because they just make up lies and act disingenuous. Everyone on planet Earth with a brain understands exactly what he meant. Why did me and you come to the exact same conclusion based off what he said? Because it's common sense. Trump isn't saying "lets put Liz Cheney in front of 9 soldiers and have them shoot her." It's f***ing unbelievable that people can make that argument with a straight face. Back in 2016 I called myself a "NeverTrump conservative". The reason I abandoned that label was that the people I knew who were using that label, who I thought were like me and devoted to truth, routinely fell for, repeated, and doubled down on egregious lies even when directly corrected in a way that "everyone on planet Earth with a brain" could see. I kept telling them "I wish you'd stop making me defend Trump." Sometimes they'd tell me I didn't have to, but I was like ... I defend what's true and I criticize lies. There's plenty of true stuff to criticize Trump about, so why lie to do it? Why can't we all agree to tell the truth, which still makes Trump look pretty bad most of the time? Why does anyone have to tell extra lies just to make him look slightly worse -- and then damage their credibility in the process? Two shibboleths I use for people on opposite political sides: who, specifically, did Trump call "very fine people"? Who, specifically, did Hillary call a "basket of deplorables"? Both sides lie about this, and you can check both full unedited videos or transcripts pretty easily. Trump says white supremacists are bad, there are very fine people who disagree about what to do with confederate monuments, and he's not talking about nazis because they're bad (even Snopes agrees that I am correct here, but also, anyone with a brain who just watches the video can see that I have represented it correctly; note that Kamala specifically has lied about this.) And Hillary says that there are plenty of decent people who support Trump, and separately there's another group of racists and sexists and other bad people who are a "basket of deplorables" who worry her (Trump and lots of right-wing media lie about this and falsely claim that Hillary called every Trump voter "deplorable".) And almost every time I point out these things, someone comes in to argue with me that no, Trump really called Nazis "very fine people" or Hillary really called all Trump voters "deplorable", because someone told them that was true and they simply don't have the intelligence and integrity necessary to check for themselves and deprogram themselves. To me, if someone can't get both of these shibboleths right, I simply don't trust them to be honest, truthful, thoughtful, or careful. |
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Post by Ring on Nov 1, 2024 11:14:27 GMT -5
Lothar, I genuinely think it's because people don't want to accept the truth. These people hate Trump with a passion and just can't give him the benefit of the doubt no matter what the topic is or how egregious the statement is. Just like me and you are being forced to defend him over something using common sense, those people can't do that because they hate him that much. There is no benefit of the doubt. There is no common sense. It's hate 24/7.
Again, if Trump said break a leg to Kamala before getting on stage, those people would be saying he was hoping she got injured/hurt. It's nuts.
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Post by GBG on Nov 1, 2024 11:25:28 GMT -5
Lothar, I genuinely think it's because people don't want to accept the truth. These people hate Trump with a passion and just can't give him the benefit of the doubt no matter what the topic is or how egregious the statement is. Just like me and you are being forced to defend him over something using common sense, those people can't do that because they hate him that much. There is no benefit of the doubt. There is no common sense. It's hate 24/7. Again, if Trump said break a leg to Kamala before getting on stage, those people would be saying he was hoping she got injured/hurt. It's nuts. Ring, your and Lothar’s problem are you don’t hate Trump enough, sometimes even sanewashing him. He’s the worst American leader, the most evil person in American history. Read this DKos post and watch the first clip closely. Nothing comparable to the Kamala “break a leg” stupid analogy you used. It’s mean-spirited, and not just because he said a woman critic is “dumb”, but he made himself clear about how she’d feel being shot at, okay? www.dailykos.com/stories/2024/11/1/2281550/-Trump-shares-totally-normal-fantasy-of-Liz-Cheney-facing-a-firing-squad?pm_campaign=front_page&pm_source=top_news_slot_2&pm_medium=web |
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Post by jimijam28 on Nov 1, 2024 11:26:37 GMT -5
sorry but both sides are not even the same- maga are brain dead people that live in conspiracy world.. you cant have a debate with.
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Post by jimijam28 on Nov 1, 2024 11:37:18 GMT -5
trump like too dog whistle , common sense know what he means.
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Post by game on Nov 1, 2024 11:38:29 GMT -5
The MAGA people are irrelevant. They need to convince the non-MAGA/non-Harris people. Those people are not just learning about Donald Trump, so if they don't view him as unfit already, as much as I personally don't understand that, they're unlikely to start today. They're likely conflicted based on whatever their criteria is, and the campaign needs to operate in that area.
The most logical arguments (in no order) are:
-Trump's crew is openly admitting prices will go up and the economy will have "short-term" pain, whatever that means. Inflation has been lowering for a few years now, we're finally in a rate cutting environment. You've already endured the hard part. They're telling you they're going to f**k that up and bring prices back up - and you get what out of it? Nothing.
-The words of the people who signed up to work with him - not Trump haters, people who believed in Trump at one time. Don't take liberals' words for it, take his f***ing VP's. Or Chief of Staff. Or you name the person.
-RFK having any responsibility for HHS, vaccines, you name it - Jesus Christ.
-Women's health - I've said plenty on this. Your mom/sister/wife/girlfriend/daughter/friend/whoever deserves way f***ing better.
-Supreme Court - you may not like both candidates, but given his track record and outcomes, do you want him picking another justice after how deliberate he was last time to overturn Roe?
I feel like the most common person who is still attainable is the person who doesn't like Donald Trump, probably doesn't like the political left, but feels that the economy was better under Trump. They should be plastering Elon Musk and other's words all over ads, as they're openly admitting they won't be providing any relief.
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Post by GBG on Nov 1, 2024 11:38:31 GMT -5
trump like too dog whistle , common sense know what he means. It’s stochastic terrorism, just like January 6th. I guarantee ya Liz Cheney has extra security detail around her as of this morning. |
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Post by Ring on Nov 1, 2024 11:40:33 GMT -5
Lothar, I genuinely think it's because people don't want to accept the truth. These people hate Trump with a passion and just can't give him the benefit of the doubt no matter what the topic is or how egregious the statement is. Just like me and you are being forced to defend him over something using common sense, those people can't do that because they hate him that much. There is no benefit of the doubt. There is no common sense. It's hate 24/7. Again, if Trump said break a leg to Kamala before getting on stage, those people would be saying he was hoping she got injured/hurt. It's nuts. Ring, your and Lothar’s problem are you don’t hate Trump enough, sometimes even sanewashing him. He’s the worst American leader, the most evil person in American history. Read this DKos post and watch the first clip closely. Nothing comparable to the Kamala “break a leg” stupid analogy you used. It’s mean-spirited, and not just because he said a woman critic is “dumb”, but he made himself clear about how she’d feel being shot at, okay? www.dailykos.com/stories/2024/11/1/2281550/-Trump-shares-totally-normal-fantasy-of-Liz-Cheney-facing-a-firing-squad?pm_campaign=front_page&pm_source=top_news_slot_2&pm_medium=webI try to not hate anyone as it's unhealthy. Trump is not the most evil person in American history. Just another absolutely ridiculous claim. To say Trump is worse than lets say a serial child rapist is absolutely ridiculous IMO. I don't disagree that it is mean spirited (I guess?) I disagree that he is saying he wants her to get shot at. That's not what he's saying and again anyone with common sense understands that. |
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Post by GBG on Nov 1, 2024 11:41:01 GMT -5
The MAGA people are irrelevant. They need to convince the non-MAGA/non-Harris people. Those people are not just learning about Donald Trump, so if they don't view him as unfit already, as much as I personally don't understand that, they're unlikely to start today. They're likely conflicted based on whatever their criteria is, and the campaign needs to operate in that area. The most logical arguments (in no order) are: -Trump's crew is openly admitting prices will go up and the economy will have "short-term" pain, whatever that means. Inflation has been lowering for a few years now, we're finally in a rate cutting environment. You've already endured the hard part. They're telling you they're going to f**k that up and bring prices back up - and you get what out of it? Nothing. -The words of the people who signed up to work with him - not Trump haters, people who believed in Trump at one time. Don't take liberals' words for it, take his f***ing VP's. Or Chief of Staff. Or you name the person. -RFK having any responsibility for HHS, vaccines, you name it - Jesus Christ. -Women's health - I've said plenty on this. Your mom/sister/wife/girlfriend/daughter/friend/whoever deserves way f***ing better. -Supreme Court - you may not like both candidates, but given his track record and outcomes, do you want him picking another justice after how deliberate he was last time to overturn Roe? Do you watch Kamala rally speeches? Listen to her interviews? She has been saying all of the above repeatedly. Her surrogates have too. |
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Post by GBG on Nov 1, 2024 11:42:24 GMT -5
I try to not hate anyone as it's unhealthy. Trump is not the most evil person in American history. Just another absolutely ridiculous claim. To say Trump is worse than lets say a serial child rapist is absolutely ridiculous IMO. I don't disagree that it is mean spirited (I guess?) I disagree that he is saying he wants her to get shot at. That's not what he's saying and again anyone with common sense understands that. I’m talking about LEADER. The most evil person in a public position of power we’ve ever had in this nation. Okay? |
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Post by game on Nov 1, 2024 11:44:55 GMT -5
The MAGA people are irrelevant. They need to convince the non-MAGA/non-Harris people. Those people are not just learning about Donald Trump, so if they don't view him as unfit already, as much as I personally don't understand that, they're unlikely to start today. They're likely conflicted based on whatever their criteria is, and the campaign needs to operate in that area. The most logical arguments (in no order) are: -Trump's crew is openly admitting prices will go up and the economy will have "short-term" pain, whatever that means. Inflation has been lowering for a few years now, we're finally in a rate cutting environment. You've already endured the hard part. They're telling you they're going to f**k that up and bring prices back up - and you get what out of it? Nothing. -The words of the people who signed up to work with him - not Trump haters, people who believed in Trump at one time. Don't take liberals' words for it, take his f***ing VP's. Or Chief of Staff. Or you name the person. -RFK having any responsibility for HHS, vaccines, you name it - Jesus Christ. -Women's health - I've said plenty on this. Your mom/sister/wife/girlfriend/daughter/friend/whoever deserves way f***ing better. -Supreme Court - you may not like both candidates, but given his track record and outcomes, do you want him picking another justice after how deliberate he was last time to overturn Roe? Do you watch Kamala rally speeches? Listen to her interviews? She has been saying all of the above repeatedly. Her surrogates have too. I think Harris has been doing a fine job. I'm more speaking about broader messaging from the campaign and especially the people trying to convince on her behalf in an official or unofficial capacity. I would like to see them hammer the admission from Musk and others that they'll be tanking the economy in the "short-term" (something tells me they'll be on the lifeboats while the average worker will be in the water) in ads. I think it might be the most effective argument period at this stage for anybody still on the fence, as the economy is probably their central issue if they haven't decided if they'll vote (or who they'll vote for if they do). |
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Post by Ring on Nov 1, 2024 11:44:57 GMT -5
The MAGA people are irrelevant. They need to convince the non-MAGA/non-Harris people. Those people are not just learning about Donald Trump, so if they don't view him as unfit already, as much as I personally don't understand that, they're unlikely to start today. They're likely conflicted based on whatever their criteria is, and the campaign needs to operate in that area. The most logical arguments (in no order) are: -Trump's crew is openly admitting prices will go up and the economy will have "short-term" pain, whatever that means. Inflation has been lowering for a few years now, we're finally in a rate cutting environment. You've already endured the hard part. They're telling you they're going to f**k that up and bring prices back up - and you get what out of it? Nothing. -The words of the people who signed up to work with him - not Trump haters, people who believed in Trump at one time. Don't take liberals' words for it, take his f***ing VP's. Or Chief of Staff. Or you name the person. -RFK having any responsibility for HHS, vaccines, you name it - Jesus Christ. -Women's health - I've said plenty on this. Your mom/sister/wife/girlfriend/daughter/friend/whoever deserves way f***ing better. -Supreme Court - you may not like both candidates, but given his track record and outcomes, do you want him picking another justice after how deliberate he was last time to overturn Roe? Again, it's perception. I live in New York. It's a blue state. Almost everyone I talk to says that they were better off when Trump was in office. I assume that they are talking about the amount of money they have / the price if things they are buying...but it's not like 1 or 2 people. It's legitimately everyone I talk to. So it doesn't matter if that is actually the reality or was the reality. That is THEIR reality. They believe that and they are not going to change their minds about it. They are insanely passionate about it because I've explained to many that much of that inflation was caused by Covid, Trumps tax cuts, pressuring the fed on interest rates, etc. They don't believe it. They think I'm lying to them or am a liberal (I hate both sides) Most people see that prices went up in grocery stores post 2020 and blame that on Biden/Democrats. It affects the amount of money they have. It does not matter why the prices increased. It matters that they increased during Bidens term and therefore they don't want to vote for him or Harris because they believe if Trump is back in office prices will go down. Same thing with illegal immigration. The statistics show that it's nowhere near as big of an issue as promoted by Trump and co. But on the local news (in NY) there are stories all the time about an illegal immigrant committing rape/murder. People see that and believe it's a widespread issue. I really think it's as simple as that because most people don't really follow or care about most policies. It's $ and how the person comes across. Harris comes across as fake and Trump comes across as real. And that's enough for a lot of people to vote for him. |
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Post by Ring on Nov 1, 2024 11:45:50 GMT -5
I try to not hate anyone as it's unhealthy. Trump is not the most evil person in American history. Just another absolutely ridiculous claim. To say Trump is worse than lets say a serial child rapist is absolutely ridiculous IMO. I don't disagree that it is mean spirited (I guess?) I disagree that he is saying he wants her to get shot at. That's not what he's saying and again anyone with common sense understands that. I’m talking about LEADER. The most evil person in a public position of power we’ve ever had in this nation. Okay? Fair, but you literally said that Trump is the most evil person in American history. Also are we sure that he's more evil than lets say...GWB? |
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Post by LotharBraunBrownBryant on Nov 1, 2024 11:47:30 GMT -5
your and Lothar’s problem are you don’t hate Trump enough I can't now remember if it's CS Lewis or Chesterton who talks about hearing something horrible about a hated political figure and then learning that the thing is false. Their take is that some peoples' inclination is to be disappointed, because they wished the false horrible thing was actually true and they wished the hated figure was worse than they are -- their hate for the person outstrips their love for truth; they *want* the hated person to be the worst scoundrel possible. Other peoples' inclination is to be glad that, whatever other evil there is, at least that specific evil didn't happen, and to be glad to know what's actually true. This is a better way to be. I won't lie about Trump to make him look worse. I won't lie about Putin to make him worse. I won't lie about Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Xi, KJU, Falwell Jr, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Andrew Wakefield, Dick Cheney, the guy who murdered my aunt, the guy who abused my nephew ... doesn't matter. There's nobody I hate enough to compromise myself just to hate them harder. |
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Post by jimijam28 on Nov 1, 2024 11:48:05 GMT -5
American have short term memory- and forgot about covid- and how stores were empty and we were lock up at home. (GREAT YEARS) great Job trump did.
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Post by GBG on Nov 1, 2024 11:49:59 GMT -5
I’m talking about LEADER. The most evil person in a public position of power we’ve ever had in this nation. Okay? Fair, but you literally said that Trump is the most evil person in American history. Also are we sure that he's more evil than lets say...GWB? GWB was the worst president of my lifetime, and he must be happy Trump came along because he no longer is. #45 is #45 on list of presidents, from best to worst. |
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Post by Ring on Nov 1, 2024 11:51:28 GMT -5
American have short term memory- and forgot about covid- and how stores were empty and we were lock up at home. (GREAT YEARS) great Job trump did. This is also an argument that I use all of the time because my argument is that Trump didn't take it seriously at all when it was first occurring which led to it spreading like wildfire and also obviously not having any plan on how to combat it/minimize it. Don't even get me started on the hydroxychloroquine/bleach BS. But when you use that argument they say it emanated from China, there was no way to stop it from getting here, nothing he could do, bad luck, etc. And then you have the really insane people who say that it's fake. You guys are giving way way way too much credit to the common American. Go outside and talk to people. Most people are extremely stubborn and not very intelligent. |
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Post by Ring on Nov 1, 2024 11:52:12 GMT -5
your and Lothar’s problem are you don’t hate Trump enough I can't now remember if it's CS Lewis or Chesterton who talks about hearing something horrible about a hated political figure and then learning that the thing is false. Their take is that some peoples' inclination is to be disappointed, because they wished the false horrible thing was actually true and they wished the hated figure was worse than they are -- their hate for the person outstrips their love for truth; they *want* the hated person to be the worst scoundrel possible. Other peoples' inclination is to be glad that, whatever other evil there is, at least that specific evil didn't happen, and to be glad to know what's actually true. This is a better way to be. I won't lie about Trump to make him look worse. I won't lie about Putin to make him worse. I won't lie about Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Xi, KJU, Falwell Jr, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Andrew Wakefield, Dick Cheney, the guy who murdered my aunt, the guy who abused my nephew ... doesn't matter. There's nobody I hate enough to compromise myself just to hate them harder. Handshakes and sorry to hear about the stuff that happened to your family members. |
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Post by GBG on Nov 1, 2024 11:53:19 GMT -5
The MAGA people are irrelevant. They need to convince the non-MAGA/non-Harris people. Those people are not just learning about Donald Trump, so if they don't view him as unfit already, as much as I personally don't understand that, they're unlikely to start today. They're likely conflicted based on whatever their criteria is, and the campaign needs to operate in that area. The most logical arguments (in no order) are: -Trump's crew is openly admitting prices will go up and the economy will have "short-term" pain, whatever that means. Inflation has been lowering for a few years now, we're finally in a rate cutting environment. You've already endured the hard part. They're telling you they're going to f**k that up and bring prices back up - and you get what out of it? Nothing. -The words of the people who signed up to work with him - not Trump haters, people who believed in Trump at one time. Don't take liberals' words for it, take his f***ing VP's. Or Chief of Staff. Or you name the person. -RFK having any responsibility for HHS, vaccines, you name it - Jesus Christ. -Women's health - I've said plenty on this. Your mom/sister/wife/girlfriend/daughter/friend/whoever deserves way f***ing better. -Supreme Court - you may not like both candidates, but given his track record and outcomes, do you want him picking another justice after how deliberate he was last time to overturn Roe? Again, it's perception. I live in New York. It's a blue state. Almost everyone I talk to says that they were better off when Trump was in office. I assume that they are talking about the amount of money they have / the price if things they are buying...but it's not like 1 or 2 people. It's legitimately everyone I talk to. So it doesn't matter if that is actually the reality or was the reality. That is THEIR reality. They believe that and they are not going to change their minds about it. They are insanely passionate about it because I've explained to many that much of that inflation was caused by Covid, Trumps tax cuts, pressuring the fed on interest rates, etc. They don't believe it. They think I'm lying to them or am a liberal (I hate both sides) Most people see that prices went up in grocery stores post 2020 and blame that on Biden/Democrats. It affects the amount of money they have. It does not matter why the prices increased. It matters that they increased during Bidens term and therefore they don't want to vote for him or Harris because they believe if Trump is back in office prices will go down. Same thing with illegal immigration. The statistics show that it's nowhere near as big of an issue as promoted by Trump and co. But on the local news (in NY) there are stories all the time about an illegal immigrant committing rape/murder. People see that and believe it's a widespread issue. I really think it's as simple as that because most people don't really follow or care about most policies. It's $ and how the person comes across. Harris comes across as fake and Trump comes across as real. And that's enough for a lot of people to vote for him. You must live in rural upstate NY, then, not in one of NYC boroughs. Upstate NY where Trumpkin Elise Stefanik’s district is, might as well be Arkansas or Alabama. |
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Post by Ring on Nov 1, 2024 11:54:37 GMT -5
Again, it's perception. I live in New York. It's a blue state. Almost everyone I talk to says that they were better off when Trump was in office. I assume that they are talking about the amount of money they have / the price if things they are buying...but it's not like 1 or 2 people. It's legitimately everyone I talk to. So it doesn't matter if that is actually the reality or was the reality. That is THEIR reality. They believe that and they are not going to change their minds about it. They are insanely passionate about it because I've explained to many that much of that inflation was caused by Covid, Trumps tax cuts, pressuring the fed on interest rates, etc. They don't believe it. They think I'm lying to them or am a liberal (I hate both sides) Most people see that prices went up in grocery stores post 2020 and blame that on Biden/Democrats. It affects the amount of money they have. It does not matter why the prices increased. It matters that they increased during Bidens term and therefore they don't want to vote for him or Harris because they believe if Trump is back in office prices will go down. Same thing with illegal immigration. The statistics show that it's nowhere near as big of an issue as promoted by Trump and co. But on the local news (in NY) there are stories all the time about an illegal immigrant committing rape/murder. People see that and believe it's a widespread issue. I really think it's as simple as that because most people don't really follow or care about most policies. It's $ and how the person comes across. Harris comes across as fake and Trump comes across as real. And that's enough for a lot of people to vote for him. You must live in rural upstate NY, then, not in one of NYC boroughs. Upstate NY where Trumpkin Elise Stefanik’s district is, might as well be Arkansas or Alabama. Not upstate but on Long Island. Upstate NY is exactly how you described it lol. But at the same time NYC and the boroughs might as well be San Francisco. Both areas are as extreme as it gets (and in terrible shape) |
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