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Post by wizardofcozz on Nov 2, 2024 8:42:39 GMT -5
This team still lacks major creation. Literally outside of Jokic, no one else in the team can consistently go get and score a shot. As critical as I've been of Murray he definitely would of helped offensively down the stretch. Defensively though he's just been so bad I don't know if it would of changed the game. We may have scored slightly more but given up more points.
Unfortunately the team at this point in the season is flawed and lacks hardly any 2-way players. Jokic has been solid but still rests some defensively considering his offensive workload, and AG has been given it on both ends, and CB has been giving great production on both ends and that's it. MPJ broke out here last coupe of games, but his defense has been atrocious. Murray has been bad on both ends, Russ gsve good defensive energy but his offense has been worse then I imagined it'd be. Saric is a dumpster fire, PWat is a dumpster fire, Straw has been serviceable but it's alot to ask a 2nd year guy wjen more experienced guys aren't stepping up.
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Post by freakns on Nov 2, 2024 9:21:07 GMT -5
I'll post what I think is interesting or I think is important enough to me to spend a few minutes typing out. You do the same. I can skim or ignore your stuff if I don't see value in it and I'm quite confident you can do the same with mine. You posted four tips for Michael Malone or whatever you called it at halftime like he might login and see it or you might have insight into coaching that he doesn't have. I don't understand that at all, but you enjoyed doing it, so I'm happy for you. I'm irrelevant in this equation. I can easily breeze right past it if I am not interested in what you have to say. I know you can do the same with what I post that you don't find interesting or understand. Neither of us are crazed or embarrassing or childish in this scenario. We're just different people who enjoy and articulate different things. I hope that helps. Your first few posts on the subject were interesting, then I noticed you started repeating yourself so I indeed read through those faster. You have been a good contributor here in the past, but right now it got boring to read the same. “FIRE BOOTH” over and over again, when you well know that it ain’t happening. Others joined in, so it makes a thread almost unreadable, though I try to read every fan’s take. Just think a bit more variety makes a thread more interesting. Repetition is what old guys do, like me. I’m nearly 71, and am starting to repeat myself like old folks are known to do. So I try to vary things on Nuggets or non-Nuggets (political these days) talk. Just friendly advice: You’ve made your point on Booth very clear, and I’d like to read something else from you unrelated to that agenda on Nuggets threads, because I’ve seen in the past that you write well and can be a really good commentator on the Nuggets. its on both Booth and Malone. with bench being this bad, it can not be only one guy. Saric was 8/4.5/2.5 guy last season with Warriors. while not being exceptional, he wasn't all that bad. this season he looks like worst player in basketball. in same time, for last 3 years, Zeke was doing same thing on same position. so what is bigger chance, that Zeke and Saric are literally worst 5s in NBA while both looking exactly same, or Malone is having some issues? in same time Booth has done nothing to help this team out. whatever he imagine was going to happen, I'm pretty sure "playing Jokic 40 minutes every game" was not his plan. so he either didn't know or didn't care who he has as a coach and what Malone would do. everyone f***ing knows who Malone is and how he is coaching! its not secret! he hasn't changed in last 8 years! so GM setting a team with 3 young guys on bench who have combined for 2000 minutes(1500 Watson, 500 Strawther and 0 Holmes), wtf he thought is gonna happen?! so his plan for title was, I'm gonna create a bench with 3 rookies, Westbrook and Saric, and we will be OK... especially with Malone and his trust in young players...three guys that I like to follow are Bill Simmons, Jason Timpf and Tim Legler, all three of them said same thing. loosing KCP sux, but not because CB cant replace KCP, but because you already had CB and KCP, so you are letting reliable rotation guy for nothing. he also let Jeff Green go last season. Bruce Brown, OK, he couldn't keep him. but he could've kept Jeff Green and decided not to. result, Nuggets bench suffer big time. and all the talking in offseason about front office and coach not being on same track... I'm sure every team has that, and GMs and coaches do not operate on same level... but when Malone goes out and say "we sure as hell could use KCP" tells you a lot about differences between those two. and team cant function when GM and coach look away one from another. product will usually be s**t show, just like our bench |
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Post by Dunkman on Nov 2, 2024 9:34:33 GMT -5
It’s more than a slow start for Murray. He isn’t missing shots he can make. He’s not getting the shots he used to get. I think he’ll be better than this as the season goes on. I’m very skeptical that he can be as good as we need him to be.
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Post by wizardofcozz on Nov 2, 2024 10:07:23 GMT -5
We have 4 guys in our top 9 who are meeting expectations. That in and of itself is problematic. Jokic, AG, Braun, and Straw (defense has been up and down but he does give effort and he's been efficient offensively though in low volume). Our ORTG sits at 113 and our DRTG sets at 117. We need those to flip before we're going to get more consistent.
Some ideas feel free to give thoughts on these.
1.) Russ - I'm playing Russ with Jokic more. Other than in crunch time, I thought the pairing looked decent. Jok is the only guy Russ defers to, and Russ also gets Jok the ball. Outside of our starters at the beginning and end of each half. I think we need to start looking at 2 bench units not 1.
2.) 2 bench units - I'm thinking something where we take out AG, and Murray and bring in Straw and Russ. Then you go with Russ/Straw/Braun/MPJ/Jok. Then comeback with Murray/Straw & Russ mixed/Vlatko or Tyson/AG/Zeke or Saric. I'm just kinda over PWat at moment, and I get others are over Saric, so I'm cool with trying some other stuff. Either way AG needs to be with bench more to fortify the defense AND I'd push him to take more control offensively. I think he has it in him. I'm also good with him taking 3-4 3's per game from here on out. A confident AG going into playoffs would be huge. We clearly can't go with 1 starter and 4 bench guys any more. I thought Tyson was solid last night, AND IF you play him with Jok I think you can get away with him as well at times.
3.) Philosophy issues - We have major issues both on O and D just philosophically. Malone still seems set on protecting rim at expense of 3's, and teams are putting up historic 3PT Rate against us. The flip side is that we don't take enough 3's at all. Jok took 2 more last night, he needs to take 3-4 a game, same with AG, MPJ has to be taking a minimum 7-8 a game. Same with Murray when he comes back. I've actually thought Braun has been pretty good of mixing taking his 3's and driving. I think as season goes his confidence will go up. Straw doesn't get nearly enough 3's up per game. To the fact that PWat is taking 1.8 and Straw 2.2 Straw HAS TO be getting up 3 + 3's a game in his stints. We have Russ and PWat together too much, and then have them hanging on perimeter way to much.
4.) Mid-season move - I fully expect some mid-season move even if just on the edges. THough the edges seems to be the issue with this team. Just replacing 1 of our top 9 with a guy who could make some more 3's consistently would probably do wonders for this team especially if said player a solid defender. I'm sure their will be pieces in the buyout market, we have to be buyers here.
5.) Lack of creation - I beat this drum last year. We didn't have enough rim pressure and creation at the rim. It's part of reason I was OK letting KCP go. If we could of kept KCP at a reasonable contract and put Braun in starting lineup and KCP off bench that may have been ideal IMO, but KCP wouldn't of accepted that and his contract was untenable for what we want to do. I love Russ's rim attacks but he can't make a layup, so it's almost pointless especially with bench unit. So we still are stuck with not enough guys who can get get a bucket at the rim. Every team we've played has more guys who can attack off bounce and score then we do.
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Post by wizardofcozz on Nov 2, 2024 10:23:26 GMT -5
Some interesting advanced shooting #'s
FG Added which means points scored above what an avg shooting % would be. Here are the stats for DEN
Jok is a +18.3
AG is a +8
CB is a +3
Straw is a +5.4
Murray is a - 17
Russ is a - 23
PWat is a - 14.8
Saric is a - 8.8
MPJ is a - 0.9
VORP - Value Over Replacement
Jok - 0.8
AG - 0.2
CB 0.0
MPJ 0.0
Murray -0.1
Russ -0.1
Straw -0.1 This is suprising which probably means his defense is worse then I'm probably thinking.
PWat -0.1
Saric -0.1
BPM - Box +/-
Jok - 14.5
AG - 2.0
That's it everyone else is negative. Some of the worst are:
Murray -4.2
Russ -4.8
PWat -9.8
Saric -15.5
I fully expect MPJ to be in the positives from here on out. Murray and Russ are killing this team offensively and that's our two PG's! WE currently have 2 guys as clear positives AG and Jok, CB has been solid, and everyone else has been a net negative!!
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Post by GBG on Nov 2, 2024 10:30:05 GMT -5
Some interesting advanced shooting #'s FG Added which means points scored above what an avg shooting % would be. Here are the stats for DEN Jok is a +18.3 AG is a +8 CB is a +3 Straw is a +5.4 Murray is a - 17 Russ is a - 23 PWat is a - 14.8 Saric is a - 8.8 MPJ is a - 0.9 VORP - Value Over Replacement Jok - 0.8 AG - 0.2 CB 0.0 MPJ 0.0 Murray -0.1 Russ -0.1 Straw -0.1 This is suprising which probably means his defense is worse then I'm probably thinking. PWat -0.1 Saric -0.1 BPM - Box +/- Jok - 14.5 AG - 2.0 That's it everyone else is negative. Some of the worst are: Murray -4.2 Russ -4.8 PWat -9.8 Saric -15.5 I fully expect MPJ to be in the positives from here on out. Murray and Russ are killing this team offensively and that's our two PG's! WE currently have 2 guys as clear positives AG and Jok, CB has been solid, and everyone else has been a net negative!! It’s a five game sample. Do this after 20 games, as the numbers mean little right now. For example, Russ’s career FG% is 43.8%, and it was 45.4% last season with Clippers. Through five games with us, it’s 24.4%. Unless you think he has completely fallen off a cliff since earlier this year and he’s done as a player, this stretch is just noise. I want more signal, less noise. Wait 20 games, or at least 10 before drawing any conclusions from the numbers you see. |
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Post by wicked3line on Nov 2, 2024 11:02:40 GMT -5
We have 4 guys in our top 9 who are meeting expectations. That in and of itself is problematic. Jokic, AG, Braun, and Straw (defense has been up and down but he does give effort and he's been efficient offensively though in low volume). Our ORTG sits at 113 and our DRTG sets at 117. We need those to flip before we're going to get more consistent. Some ideas feel free to give thoughts on these. 1.) Russ - I'm playing Russ with Jokic more. Other than in crunch time, I thought the pairing looked decent. Jok is the only guy Russ defers to, and Russ also gets Jok the ball. Outside of our starters at the beginning and end of each half. I think we need to start looking at 2 bench units not 1. 2.) 2 bench units - I'm thinking something where we take out AG, and Murray and bring in Straw and Russ. Then you go with Russ/Straw/Braun/MPJ/Jok. Then comeback with Murray/Straw & Russ mixed/Vlatko or Tyson/AG/Zeke or Saric. I'm just kinda over PWat at moment, and I get others are over Saric, so I'm cool with trying some other stuff. Either way AG needs to be with bench more to fortify the defense AND I'd push him to take more control offensively. I think he has it in him. I'm also good with him taking 3-4 3's per game from here on out. A confident AG going into playoffs would be huge. We clearly can't go with 1 starter and 4 bench guys any more. I thought Tyson was solid last night, AND IF you play him with Jok I think you can get away with him as well at times. 3.) Philosophy issues - We have major issues both on O and D just philosophically. Malone still seems set on protecting rim at expense of 3's, and teams are putting up historic 3PT Rate against us. The flip side is that we don't take enough 3's at all. Jok took 2 more last night, he needs to take 3-4 a game, same with AG, MPJ has to be taking a minimum 7-8 a game. Same with Murray when he comes back. I've actually thought Braun has been pretty good of mixing taking his 3's and driving. I think as season goes his confidence will go up. Straw doesn't get nearly enough 3's up per game. To the fact that PWat is taking 1.8 and Straw 2.2 Straw HAS TO be getting up 3 + 3's a game in his stints. We have Russ and PWat together too much, and then have them hanging on perimeter way to much. 4.) Mid-season move - I fully expect some mid-season move even if just on the edges. THough the edges seems to be the issue with this team. Just replacing 1 of our top 9 with a guy who could make some more 3's consistently would probably do wonders for this team especially if said player a solid defender. I'm sure their will be pieces in the buyout market, we have to be buyers here. 5.) Lack of creation - I beat this drum last year. We didn't have enough rim pressure and creation at the rim. It's part of reason I was OK letting KCP go. If we could of kept KCP at a reasonable contract and put Braun in starting lineup and KCP off bench that may have been ideal IMO, but KCP wouldn't of accepted that and his contract was untenable for what we want to do. I love Russ's rim attacks but he can't make a layup, so it's almost pointless especially with bench unit. So we still are stuck with not enough guys who can get get a bucket at the rim. Every team we've played has more guys who can attack off bounce and score then we do. Overall I try not to overreact to the first 10 games as the NBA did the Nuggets no favor by scheduling two back-2-backs in the first 10 days. They just went 2-1 on a road trip (figured they'd lose to Wolves) and outside of looking horrible on opening night against OKC, just lost a tough home game against Clippers. So far, the move to let KCP walk and promote Braun into the starting lineup is looking like a great choice (KCP is washed). In contrast Saric looks horrible and PWat doesn't even look like a rotation player which leaves Straw and Russ trying to do too much. I'll give Malone through game 10 to figure out lineups but I am very concerned about the lack of bench production. I support your #1 and #2 while anything that reduces PWat from playing/shooting along with Russ in #3 is a positive as well. As far as #4, that gets complicated with KSE having no draft capital to include while they don't have much ability anymore to get buyout players that make more than the MLE since they are over the 1st apron. Nobody in the starting 5 is being traded and doubt Straw or Russ would be included. Don't see much interest in PWat which leaves only one of Saric or Zeke for a team needing depth with bigs but that requires one of them to look competent, which hasn't happened. Finally #5 has been an issue ever since Bruce took his talents out of Denver. The lack of play creation when Jokic sits is well known but then add a bunch of players that either just toss up jump shots or stand around waiting for somebody to play make for them is an issue. I don't see this getting resolved unless Russ figures out how to finish better to where it opens up more lanes for other players. |
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Post by scooter on Nov 2, 2024 11:12:00 GMT -5
Since this is a game thread (although I don’t care at all about “thread discipline”), I’ll chime in that it was a great game. One TWolves’ three rims out (several of their guys were irrationally hot as Gordon was for the Nuggets) and it’s a fantastic win. Hugely entertaining, and that’s what I watch games for. The Nuggets brought it.
On the big picture stuff, people here seem to be overreacting as the team isn’t that different than it has been the last 2 seasons. In 22-23, the bench started the season with Hyland (taking way more shots per minute than Jokic), Brown, Green, and Jordan/Nnaji, with Cancar also playing when needed. It was bad defensively, and with Bones taking a lot of shots despite shooting 39% overall, also inefficient on offense. They started working Braun into the bench in December/January. After they traded Bones, they shortened the bench and played Brown at backup PG and tried Bryant at backup C in place of Jordan/Nnaji (Bryant was bad) and we continued our debate as to whether Green should be playing at all or whether Cancar should have his minutes. Overall, the bench was a disaster that season other than Bruce Brown. When the rotation was shortened even more as the playoffs started, it was down to Brown, Green (who raised his game some) and a few minutes for Braun.
I can’t speak for anyone else but my own POV is to be patient when it comes to Watson and Strawther, as I expect both to improve if they stay healthy. Westbrook is who we thought he was — the backup PG opposite of last season’s Reggie Jackson: not good in half court offense sets, but able to push pace and draw some fouls and sometimes get to the basket (but also to turn it over sometimes), and be a better or at least more aggressive defender than was Jackson. He’s playing a similar role to what Bruce Brown provided but he’s older and less consistent in the role. When it comes to the bench, I still want to see Malone try Nnaji again. I know he’s not a Nnaji fan, but Saric has been a disaster so far and the last time I saw Nnaji play — in the preseason — he looked improved and I think he might be able to play some decent minutes.
On to the next game. You guys can go back to your Calvin Booth discussions.
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Post by passtheballquick on Nov 2, 2024 13:39:40 GMT -5
If Russ could shoot the midrange and 3's at Murray's level, he'd be the best point guard ever. The way how he's attacking the paint is unreal. But man, missing 6 times out of 7 a foot away from the basket is really annoying
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Post by GBG on Nov 2, 2024 13:44:48 GMT -5
If Russ could shoot the midrange and 3's at Murray's level, he'd be the best point guard ever. The way how he's attacking the paint is unreal. But man, missing 6 times out of 7 a foot away from the basket is really annoying You are completely unaware of the fact that Westbrook shot 65.5% from 0-3 feet last season and 63.2% the season before. His career FG% from 0-3 feet is 60.0%. He hadn’t shown any decline in the basket area the past two seasons and in fact improved on his career efficiency. This year through all of 5 games, Russ is shooting 35.3% from 0-3 feet. So he’s not gonna miss 6 out of 7 all season, unless you think 5 games mean anything and shows he’s completely lost it in less than a year. He’s not even missing 6 of 7 now since 35.3% means he’s made more than 1 of 3 such shots so far. I know this slow start is frustrating, but the early struggles of our bench has totally made us lose perspective. |
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Post by JB on Nov 2, 2024 15:51:09 GMT -5
more red meat for the anti-Calvin contingent
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Post by AbdulJabber on Nov 2, 2024 20:03:39 GMT -5
Since this is a game thread (although I don’t care at all about “thread discipline”), I’ll chime in that it was a great game. One TWolves’ three rims out (several of their guys were irrationally hot as Gordon was for the Nuggets) and it’s a fantastic win. Hugely entertaining, and that’s what I watch games for. The Nuggets brought it. On the big picture stuff, people here seem to be overreacting as the team isn’t that different than it has been the last 2 seasons. In 22-23, the bench started the season with Hyland (taking way more shots per minute than Jokic), Brown, Green, and Jordan/Nnaji, with Cancar also playing when needed. It was bad defensively, and with Bones taking a lot of shots despite shooting 39% overall, also inefficient on offense. They started working Braun into the bench in December/January. After they traded Bones, they shortened the bench and played Brown at backup PG and tried Bryant at backup C in place of Jordan/Nnaji (Bryant was bad) and we continued our debate as to whether Green should be playing at all or whether Cancar should have his minutes. Overall, the bench was a disaster that season other than Bruce Brown. When the rotation was shortened even more as the playoffs started, it was down to Brown, Green (who raised his game some) and a few minutes for Braun. I can’t speak for anyone else but my own POV is to be patient when it comes to Watson and Strawther, as I expect both to improve if they stay healthy. Westbrook is who we thought he was — the backup PG opposite of last season’s Reggie Jackson: not good in half court offense sets, but able to push pace and draw some fouls and sometimes get to the basket (but also to turn it over sometimes), and be a better or at least more aggressive defender than was Jackson. He’s playing a similar role to what Bruce Brown provided but he’s older and less consistent in the role. When it comes to the bench, I still want to see Malone try Nnaji again. I know he’s not a Nnaji fan, but Saric has been a disaster so far and the last time I saw Nnaji play — in the preseason — he looked improved and I think he might be able to play some decent minutes. On to the next game. You guys can go back to your Calvin Booth discussions. Agreed about the game. I thought we did a nice job building a 10 point lead with 3 minutes to go. You hate to see your team blow leads at the end, but it happens. It doesn't mean you have major issues or anything. In fact I'm very impressed with how we stormed back after giving up an 18-2 run in the second quarter. It was a good brand of basketball. Even during the 18-2 run, we were executing and getting wide open shots. Just have be able to make a few of em. |
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