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Post by inyourmind on Jan 31, 2019 21:19:41 GMT -5
Those numbers aren't relevant though man. Our argument has always been about him in the PnR as a playmaker. If those assists are just him swinging the ball to an open man it doesn't relate to our argument. Same thing as the turnovers. Get me his assist/TO ratio in the PnR over the last 4 months. The raw assist/turnovers as well. I would be jaw on the floor shocked if they weren't much better in December and January. I don't know where to find those stats. I do know that this year is Jokics lowest assisted FG % year but a lot of that is probably due to him post ISOing more lately. Yeah but if Jokic's shot attempts are down, and he's not shooting as much, how is that not relevant? .. you talking about Murray's TO's, acting like he's TO prone, when his TO's don't suggest that? .. I'm guessing Murray's APG in the pick and roll are better lately, because Jokic is shooting more. Lots of people were concerned at certain points in November because Jokic was passing up open looks including me. When Jokic is averaging 13.9 points a game, vs 25 which is where he's at currently it's going to look different. Better to agree to disagree. I just don't think a 22 year old NBA player who's been playing basketball his entire life learns how to run the P&R in 7 weeks. An offseason? Sure. Mid season .. magically going from being bad at it .. too good? Crazy to me. Maybe being average to above average, improving slightly .. guess I could get on board with that. Going from being trashed while running it to being praised for running it? Tough sell IMO. A more realistic sell is people overreacting too poor shooting and a less aggressive Jokic. Which I saw, and argued with at the time, and the numbers back up.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2019 21:35:53 GMT -5
Those numbers aren't relevant though man. Our argument has always been about him in the PnR as a playmaker. If those assists are just him swinging the ball to an open man it doesn't relate to our argument. Same thing as the turnovers. Get me his assist/TO ratio in the PnR over the last 4 months. The raw assist/turnovers as well. I would be jaw on the floor shocked if they weren't much better in December and January. I don't know where to find those stats. I do know that this year is Jokics lowest assisted FG % year but a lot of that is probably due to him post ISOing more lately. Yeah but if Jokic's shot attempts are down, and he's not shooting as much, how is that not relevant? .. you talking about Murray's TO's, acting like he's TO prone, when his TO's don't suggest that? .. I'm guessing Murray's APG in the pick and roll are better lately, because Jokic is shooting more. Lots of people were concerned at certain points in November because Jokic was passing up open looks including me. When Jokic is averaging 13.9 points a game, vs 25 which is where he's at currently it's going to look different. Better to agree to disagree. I just don't think a 22 year old NBA player who's been playing basketball his entire life learns how to run the P&R in 7 weeks. An offseason? Sure. Mid season .. magically going from being bad at it .. too good? Crazy to me. Maybe being average to above average, improving slightly .. guess I could get on board with that. Going from being trashed while running it to being praised for running it? Tough sell IMO. A more realistic sell is people overreacting too poor shooting and a less aggressive Jokic. Which I saw, and argued with at the time, and the numbers back up. I think most people were complaining about him turning down open 3s and I think he may know more than us if his 3 point % this year means anything lol. Also Murrays TOs being lower than other PGs are a bit skewed considering Jokic is the main facilitator. His TO numbers I'm sure are lower than Harden/Lebron but the usage of those guys is also much higher. All I'm saying is to my eye Murray got much better in the PnR as the season went on. It's why in like every game thread I'd point it out. It's not like Jokic was scoring on every single PnR pass either. Murray was just completing much more and that was leading to the Jokic floaters that were not existent since Jameer was running the show. My eyes could be wrong/over-exaggerating but I really don't think they were/are. Someone here needs to get a Synergy account lol...I think they have the stats were looking for.
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Post by inyourmind on Jan 31, 2019 23:00:29 GMT -5
I don't even think synergy would be able to tell the whole story. Like if Jamal runs the pick and roll, Jokic gets an open shot, he misses .. that'll show up as a miss .. but it was a successful play.
Lots of keystrokes wasted haha .. it's just IMO 22 year old NBA players don't learn to run a basic play. It's an offseason thing. 7 weeks just isn't enough sample size. A year? Sure. Slight improvement? Yeah. Trash to good? Not in 7 wees.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2019 23:11:55 GMT -5
I don't even think synergy would be able to tell the whole story. Like if Jamal runs the pick and roll, Jokic gets an open shot, he misses .. that'll show up as a miss .. but it was a successful play. Lots of keystrokes wasted haha .. it's just IMO 22 year old NBA players don't learn to run a basic play. It's an offseason thing. 7 weeks just isn't enough sample size. A year? Sure. Slight improvement? Yeah. Trash to good? Not in 7 wees. I just want to see the number of passes attempted in the PnR from October until now lol
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Post by LotharBraunBrownBryant on Jan 31, 2019 23:49:08 GMT -5
I've been world-class in a video game before -- held the #1 spot on a couple different occasions, beat the very best players to get there, was a credible threat to anyone. When you're at that level, sometimes you really do suddenly get better at a "basic" skill by making a small adjustment. When you do, it may not even get noticed by observers at a lower level because it's like... you're adjusting your speed or your orientation in a slight way that's creating an advantageous angle, forcing your opponent to move a little differently to defend against it, and you create a better window of opportunity. That's what I think when I look at Murray handling in the P&R, like, I couldn't tell you what he's doing differently, but it just seems like opposing defenses are a little more on their heels, like he's forcing them off their spots with some kind of subtle threat that I can't even identify. It's the sort of thing that might be deep in the stats, like, passes leading to passes leading to open shots off the P&R might be up.
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Post by inyourmind on Feb 1, 2019 0:16:36 GMT -5
I've been world-class in a video game before -- held the #1 spot on a couple different occasions, beat the very best players to get there, was a credible threat to anyone. When you're at that level, sometimes you really do suddenly get better at a "basic" skill by making a small adjustment. When you do, it may not even get noticed by observers at a lower level because it's like... you're adjusting your speed or your orientation in a slight way that's creating an advantageous angle, forcing your opponent to move a little differently to defend against it, and you create a better window of opportunity. That's what I think when I look at Murray handling in the P&R, like, I couldn't tell you what he's doing differently, but it just seems like opposing defenses are a little more on their heels, like he's forcing them off their spots with some kind of subtle threat that I can't even identify. It's the sort of thing that might be deep in the stats, like, passes leading to passes leading to open shots off the P&R might be up. yeah video games don't = NBA basketball. If basketball players could develop NBA pick and roll skills .. it'd be a million dollar thing. It'd be the difference between getting drafted or not. The difference between getting minutes or getting benched. The P&R is a play every single guard learned from the age of like 10. Improving if over an offseason? I 100% buy it. Improving it, or getting better over an NBA regular season? Yeah I can see that. Getting trashed in gamethreads, being awful at it, to becoming really good? An absolute gigantic stretch. If Murray or Malone is capable of that than there's literally nothing that is off limits. P&R is basketball IQ, anticipation, handle, and touch as a scorer. Half the NBA can't even do it. Nash and Harden have become superstars because of it. It's either someone learned one of the most valuable assets you can learn within 7 weeks, or Jokic just started becoming more aggressive and Murray starting hitting his shots. Like you don't Murray couldn't see Jokic open? He couldn't hit him with the pass? Within a month he was just like oh s**t lol
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2019 0:20:44 GMT -5
I've been world-class in a video game before -- held the #1 spot on a couple different occasions, beat the very best players to get there, was a credible threat to anyone. When you're at that level, sometimes you really do suddenly get better at a "basic" skill by making a small adjustment. When you do, it may not even get noticed by observers at a lower level because it's like... you're adjusting your speed or your orientation in a slight way that's creating an advantageous angle, forcing your opponent to move a little differently to defend against it, and you create a better window of opportunity. That's what I think when I look at Murray handling in the P&R, like, I couldn't tell you what he's doing differently, but it just seems like opposing defenses are a little more on their heels, like he's forcing them off their spots with some kind of subtle threat that I can't even identify. It's the sort of thing that might be deep in the stats, like, passes leading to passes leading to open shots off the P&R might be up. yeah video games don't = NBA basketball. If basketball players could develop NBA pick and roll skills .. it'd be a million dollar thing. It'd be the difference between getting drafted or not. The difference between getting minutes or getting benched. The P&R is a play every single guard learned from the age of like 10. Improving if over an offseason? I 100% buy it. Improving it, or getting better over an NBA regular season? Yeah I can see that. Getting trashed in gamethreads, being awful at it, to becoming really good? An absolute gigantic stretch. If Murray or Malone is capable of that than there's literally nothing that is off limits. P&R is basketball IQ, anticipation, handle, and touch as a scorer. Half the NBA can't even do it. Nash and Harden have become superstars because of it. It's either someone learned one of the most valuable assets you can learn within 7 weeks, or Jokic just started becoming more aggressive and Murray starting hitting his shots. Like you don't Murray couldn't see Jokic open? He couldn't hit him with the pass? Within a month he was just like oh s**t lol This is why we need those pass stats. Because whether he could hit him with the PnR pass, he simply wasn't. He was either not attempting it or completing it at a way lesser success rate. It's not like he all of a sudden became elite at it. He still turns it over at times. He still misses simple passes that are there. An example would be the play against Portland. He missed Jokic in the paint with good position and ended up forcing a shot. He ended up getting the rebound though. I just think he's gotten much better at completing those passes. Like I said, I don't remember many times he hit Jokic on it and Jokic turned down a shot 5 feet from the basket. He's hitting a rolling Jokic somewhat consistently compared to the beginning of the season where he either wasn't seeing it or wasn't trusting it. I'm sure they work with him in the PnR consistently. IT/Monte should help him too. It could be something as simple as they broke down film and noticed he was taking too sharp of an angle off a screen. Who knows. I see a big difference though.
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Post by inyourmind on Feb 1, 2019 0:34:52 GMT -5
This is a wild argument. To each his own. Outside of this argument people wanted Monte to start over Murray, called him 6th man, were trashing him etc. etc. IMO that was the shooting slump not the pick and roll. Had Murray started the season shooting well nobody would have been trashing him or asking Monte to start. Murray will probably have another shooting slump that puts people into a frenzy.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2019 0:43:33 GMT -5
This is a wild argument. To each his own. Outside of this argument people wanted Monte to start over Murray, called him 6th man, were trashing him etc. etc. IMO that was the shooting slump not the pick and roll. Had Murray started the season shooting well nobody would have been trashing him or asking Monte to start. Murray will probably have another shooting slump that puts people into a frenzy. I really would love to know why he always starts slow though. It's usually like a 2 month thing. Somebody brought it up today that maybe he does just work way too hard in the offseason. Idk if that's even possible but it's just weird for a guy with as good a shot as he has to shoot under 30 from 3 for like 30+ games. I'll be really upset if we trade him for Murray for AD and as you know I'm not even insanely high on him. I just don't think it's worth the risk. Team chemistry is severely underrated and this team has some of the best I've ever seen. They're obviously close and I really want to see them get this playoff run together. Let them continue to develop together where the window to win a ring still isn't there. Murray for potentially 10 more years >>> 1.5 seasons of AD.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2019 0:45:01 GMT -5
In case anyone cares about this as much as I do...with the Warriors loss tonight, Malone will coach the All Star game if the Nuggets beat the Rockets and Wolves on a b2b. If the Warriors lose to the Lakers, we'd only need to win 1 game for him to coach the game.
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Post by JB on Feb 1, 2019 0:48:03 GMT -5
The blogbois say the post game is dead but Embiid and Simmons just punished the Warriors down low and they couldn't do anything about it. The only reason the game got close is the 6ers starting chucking from the outside.
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Post by LotharBraunBrownBryant on Feb 1, 2019 1:05:20 GMT -5
yeah video games don't = NBA basketball Of course not. But being within sight of the actual best in the world, at anything, means understanding the potential value of tiny adjustments that people who have never been there won't even be able to identify. People without that kind of experience sometimes think the difference between the absolute best and the next tier is some kind of huge thing, but often it's decision-making a fraction of a second faster, or a slight change in the way you manage your position or momentum. (It's worthwhile to read Colonel John Boyd's writings about the OODA Loop. Yeah, I know, piloting fighter jets don't = NBA basketball either.) Right, and there are players who get drafted and not, players who get minutes and not, players who run the play like ten-year-olds when they're ten and players who still run it like ten-year-olds when they're a backup on their HS team. And there are NBA players who are better and worse at it, and NBA players whose splits in December are way worse than their splits in April. I don't agree with the assessment that Murray *sucked* and then became *awesome*. What I'm saying -- my argument, not some combo of mine and someone else's -- is that it does look to my eye like Murray made some kind of small adjustment. Yes, on top of Jokic being more aggressive and Murray making shots. There's something else subtle that I don't understand basketball well enough to be able to pinpoint, but I can see there's an impact in terms of the other team's relative disposition, like defenders have less margin for error that goes beyond "he can hit this pull-up" and "if he makes this pass Jokic is likely to score". Like they need the help defender to get there half a step sooner because they're having to play the pass a little tighter because Murray is creating a better angle and it's putting more pressure on the main defender.
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Post by game on Feb 1, 2019 1:08:26 GMT -5
Odd that the collection of LeBron the self-proclaimed greatest to ever do it along with the greatest supporting cast of future HOFers that any team should be desperate to trade for aren't able to put away the Clippers in regulation. But I guess it's hard to keep up with the rules-> Did the Lakers lose? Poor LeBron has the worst supporting cast ever Did the Lakers win? LeBron is the GOAT and his supporting cast sucks and he carries them Is a major player on the trading block? Oh, s**t. Forget all that - this is the trade package you should be desperate for. This collection of young talent is the envy of the league. Holy s**t, what a supporting cast of young studs. DO YOU REALIZE HOW HIGH THESE GUYS WERE DRAFTED? ??
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2019 1:09:50 GMT -5
Odd that the collection of LeBron the self-proclaimed greatest to ever do it along with the greatest supporting cast of future HOFers that any team should be desperate to trade for aren't able to put away the Clippers in regulation. The same Clippers who are missing arguably their best player.
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Post by LotharBraunBrownBryant on Feb 1, 2019 1:16:02 GMT -5
The blogbois say the post game is dead but Embiid and Simmons just punished the Warriors down low and they couldn't do anything about it the post game is definitely evolving, but it's not dead. Offense always starts with the threat to score, and being a high-percentage scorer from in the post is still one of the most dangerous and highest value approaches to putting points on the board. What's dead is catching the ball in the post, standing around, slowly making a move, and then not knowing how to respond to a double except by maybe jacking a fadeaway. Nowadays someone who plays from the post has to be able to immediately make a move, and respond to defenders double-teaming, trapping, reaching, hedging, jumping into passing lanes, etc. Jokic and Simmons are the modern era's idea of post players, not Al Jefferson and Paul Millsap.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2019 1:21:03 GMT -5
Boban just took an elbow straight to the jaw and was called for the defensive foul. This league is such a joke. Reviewed and no flagrant too. This way way more blatant than the Plumlee screen flagrant btw.
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Post by hated sticky on Feb 1, 2019 1:33:27 GMT -5
Ayyeeee you fuckfaces the Warriors lost, with a win tonight we’ll have the exact same record... #1 seed here we come
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Post by inyourmind on Feb 1, 2019 1:45:30 GMT -5
yeah video games don't = NBA basketball Fair enough dude. I have some points I agree on, and others I don't. Good read either way. Regardless you, me, and ringing can agree that the pick and roll is rolling lol
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Post by flo on Feb 1, 2019 3:02:40 GMT -5
Is this true ?
I really have no particular pride of being #1 in the West, I mean, I know the Warriors are way above us. But I'd be so happy for Mike Malone ! I mean, I don't blame the doubts about him in the past, but this season he trully deserves this kind of acknowledgement.
Have a nice day !
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Post by rock on Feb 1, 2019 3:16:13 GMT -5
Malone could coach the all star team and the nuggets wouldn’t even get a mention on the broadcast.
Probably will just mention “coach lebron”
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