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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2019 18:27:06 GMT -5
Like I said about a month ago that Jokic/Murray PnR is legitimately unstoppable. Bigs aren't comfortable defending it because they never see it. Malone said that in an interview about that time IIRC -- that when Jokic is the ball handler in a P&R and Murray screens, opposing bigs often get lost because everyone knows how to defend the 1/5 P&R but nobody knows how to defend the 5/1 P&R. Yep. It literally never happens so they have no idea what to do.
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Post by JB on Jan 31, 2019 18:41:01 GMT -5
Murray is a dog. setting picks on big men. refusing to sit out games. you can't teach his heart.
I suspect Murray's infamous slow starts to season has to do with pushing himself too hard in the off-season. perhaps if he takes a page from Joker's book and practice a little carpe diem in the summer he would be more consistent out of the gate.
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Post by brick2 on Jan 31, 2019 18:50:45 GMT -5
There was an interesting post on realgm about something peripheral to all of this Davis stuff. If he sits out for the remainder of the season it puts Towns in contention for 3rd team All NBA. If Towns gets that distinction, it triggers a supermax bonus that bumps his pay $32m!
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Post by game on Jan 31, 2019 18:53:43 GMT -5
I would like adding Wes Matthews, but I don't see why the Nuggets would be a high consideration for any of these buyout guys. There are several places with guaranteed minutes that just aren't there in Denver with the sheer volume of rotation guys we have.
Nuggs need to look at some of these Lyles/Juancho/Craig/Lydon guys and see if they can be turned into wings who can stay on the court in a playoff series.
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Post by funky on Jan 31, 2019 18:56:38 GMT -5
Like I said about a month ago that Jokic/Murray PnR is legitimately unstoppable. Bigs aren't comfortable defending it because they never see it.
Yep, Jokic talked about this in a recent The Ringer podcast (great stuff, btw, that's the first time I heard him talking to the US media outside post-game interviews). Big guys don't know what to do. Notice how only Nurkic had a clue on where to go in that video.
Here's the podcast I've mentioned, not sure if someone already posted it (been following the forum for a while prior to registering, didn't see the link).
Edit:
Jokic is an All-Star, confirmed:
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Post by inyourmind on Jan 31, 2019 19:20:04 GMT -5
Murray's ability in the pick and roll was always pretty underrated. Sometimes his PG skills leave little to be desired but he was always good at running that either as the screen or handler. Earlier in the season when people were trashing his ability to do it IMO it was just him missing shotsl. The looks were great, the set ups were great, he just couldn't finish.
That's all it really comes down to with Murray. His form is great, he's ability to create shots is great, while not a true PG and prone to silly mistakes at times he's capable, he just needs to knock his looks down consistently. Nothing he's doing the past month is any different than early in the year, the shots are just going in.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2019 19:23:20 GMT -5
Murray's ability in the pick and roll was always pretty underrated. Sometimes his PG skills leave little to be desired but he was always good at running that either as the screen or handler. Earlier in the season when people were trashing his ability to do it IMO it was just him missing shotsl. The looks were great, the set ups were great, he just couldn't finish. That's all it really comes down to with Murray. His form is great, he's ability to create shots is great, while not a true PG and prone to silly mistakes at times he's capable, he just needs to knock his looks down consistently. Nothing he's doing the past month is any different than early in the year, the shots are just going in. Totally disagree. As the season went on he started attempting way more passes and landing more passes in the PnR. Jokic was getting 2-3 of those floaters every game.
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Post by inyourmind on Jan 31, 2019 19:30:54 GMT -5
Murray's ability in the pick and roll was always pretty underrated. Sometimes his PG skills leave little to be desired but he was always good at running that either as the screen or handler. Earlier in the season when people were trashing his ability to do it IMO it was just him missing shotsl. The looks were great, the set ups were great, he just couldn't finish. That's all it really comes down to with Murray. His form is great, he's ability to create shots is great, while not a true PG and prone to silly mistakes at times he's capable, he just needs to knock his looks down consistently. Nothing he's doing the past month is any different than early in the year, the shots are just going in. Totally disagree. As the season went on he started attempting way more passes and landing more passes in the PnR. Jokic was getting 2-3 of those floaters every game. The only thing that's changed is his shooting %'s really. Everyone was just quick to trash him early in the season and say he was a 6th man, or trade him etc. etc. I remember getting into the back and forth with you about turnovers. There still the exact same. He was never super turnover prone, in game threads everyone just picks a specific player to freak out about whatever they do and Murray was that guy early in the season. You don't magically become a good P&R player within a month. That just doesn't happen. Guy's get better within a season but they don't have the time to work on one single thing with practice, games etc. That's an offseason thing. If Murray was shooting the 3 and hitting midrange shots like he is now nobody would have freaked out and he might have been an All-Star this year. He just always starts the season shooting cold.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2019 19:37:01 GMT -5
Totally disagree. As the season went on he started attempting way more passes and landing more passes in the PnR. Jokic was getting 2-3 of those floaters every game. The only thing that's changed is his shooting %'s really. Everyone was just quick to trash him early in the season and say he was a 6th man, or trade him etc. etc. I remember getting into the back and forth with you about turnovers. There still the exact same. He was never super turnover prone, in game threads everyone just picks a specific player to freak out about whatever they do and Murray was that guy early in the season. You don't magically become a good P&R player within a month. That just doesn't happen. Guy's get better within a season but they don't have the time to work on one single thing with practice, games etc. That's an offseason thing. If Murray was shooting the 3 and hitting midrange shots like he is now nobody would have freaked out and he might have been an All-Star this year. He just always starts the season shooting cold. As a PnR ball handler and playmaker he improved an insane amount from October/November to December/January. I don't care what the assist/turnover numbers say. You started seeing him hitting multiple pocket passes per game to Jokic in the last 2 months. The first 2 months they were turnovers or just weren't attempted. Watch the 1st Grizz game as an example.
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Post by inyourmind on Jan 31, 2019 19:47:43 GMT -5
The only thing that's changed is his shooting %'s really. Everyone was just quick to trash him early in the season and say he was a 6th man, or trade him etc. etc. I remember getting into the back and forth with you about turnovers. There still the exact same. He was never super turnover prone, in game threads everyone just picks a specific player to freak out about whatever they do and Murray was that guy early in the season. You don't magically become a good P&R player within a month. That just doesn't happen. Guy's get better within a season but they don't have the time to work on one single thing with practice, games etc. That's an offseason thing. If Murray was shooting the 3 and hitting midrange shots like he is now nobody would have freaked out and he might have been an All-Star this year. He just always starts the season shooting cold. As a PnR ball handler and playmaker he improved an insane amount from October/November to December/January. I don't care what the assist/turnover numbers say. You started seeing him hitting multiple pocket passes per game to Jokic in the last 2 months. The first 2 months they were turnovers or just weren't attempted. Watch the 1st Grizz game as an example. Dude that just doesn't happen tho. You don't magically learn to run a play, you've been running since 6th grade in a like 6 weeks. If that was the case everybody would develop it. He's improved on it a bunch since he was a rookie considering he played SG at Kentucky. I was literally arguing with you about this back than. The game threads are just filled with overreaction and what have you done for me lately's. There was a few people that wanted Monte to start. During the season you have to practice teams sets, play games, have rest days. Everyone puts work in during the offseason. Murray came into the season a much improved P&R player. His shots weren't dropping so people were freaking out. They started dropping so it's all good now IMO. Murray/Jokic were getting great looks from day 1 this season. Early on Jokic wasn't as aggressive as a scorer as he is now, and Murray couldn't knock anything down. Recently Murray's been hitting shots, and Jokic is looking to score more than he did earlier in the season so were killing teams with that play.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2019 20:17:21 GMT -5
As a PnR ball handler and playmaker he improved an insane amount from October/November to December/January. I don't care what the assist/turnover numbers say. You started seeing him hitting multiple pocket passes per game to Jokic in the last 2 months. The first 2 months they were turnovers or just weren't attempted. Watch the 1st Grizz game as an example. Dude that just doesn't happen tho. You don't magically learn to run a play, you've been running since 6th grade in a like 6 weeks. If that was the case everybody would develop it. He's improved on it a bunch since he was a rookie considering he played SG at Kentucky. I was literally arguing with you about this back than. The game threads are just filled with overreaction and what have you done for me lately's. There was a few people that wanted Monte to start. During the season you have to practice teams sets, play games, have rest days. Everyone puts work in during the offseason. Murray came into the season a much improved P&R player. His shots weren't dropping so people were freaking out. They started dropping so it's all good now IMO. Murray/Jokic were getting great looks from day 1 this season. Early on Jokic wasn't as aggressive as a scorer as he is now, and Murray couldn't knock anything down. Recently Murray's been hitting shots, and Jokic is looking to score more than he did earlier in the season so were killing teams with that play. I wish they tracked the stats of passes in the PnR because I promise you it's much different now. I never complained about Murrays shot because everyone knows he can shoot. I always complained about him in the PnR because he wasn't attempting passes in the PnR for whatever reason. And when he would he would turn the ball over much more than he has been lately. Again the Grizzlies game is a perfect example of this. He still struggles a ton when pressed as well. I've always talked about his turnovers in the PnR because they're live ball. It's not like Jokic yesterday throwing a ball into the stands lol. If you look throughout the game threads I've been praising his PnR work since December because it's been much better. Substantially better.
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Post by inyourmind on Jan 31, 2019 20:25:22 GMT -5
I remember posting the stats back when we were going back and forth about the turnovers atleast. Murray never struggled with them, you just thought he did. Agree to disagree I guess. I just don't think a player magically develops P&R skills within 6-7 weeks. Especially when before that I, and other people, were defending him. People were pointing out that was he good in the P&R. It was just the mob mentality of start Morris, or he's a 6th man etc. I think the biggest difference between now and than is really simple. Murray's hitting shots and Jokic is more aggressive scoring the ball.
I think if Murray was shooting the ball/scoring like he has been lately. Jokic was averaging 20+ like he is now. Nobody would have been complaining about Murray. I mean Jokic averaged what, like 14 points in November? Hard for the P&R to be deadly when Jokic is averaging 14 points on 44% shooting and Murray's shooting 42% from the floor and 32% from 3.
They were getting great looks. Jokic was getting open midrange jumpers. Some space. Murray was getting to the basket. Getting an open jumper. It just wasn't dropping IMO. Now it is, now the entire offense is rolling.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2019 20:32:46 GMT -5
I remember posting the stats back when we were going back and forth about the turnovers atleast. Murray never struggled with them, you just thought he did. Agree to disagree I guess. I just don't think a player magically develops P&R skills within 6-7 weeks. Especially when before that I, and other people, were defending him. People were pointing out that was he good in the P&R. It was just the mob mentality of start Morris, or he's a 6th man etc. I think the biggest difference between now and than is really simple. Murray's hitting shots and Jokic is more aggressive scoring the ball. I think if Murray was shooting the ball/scoring like he has been lately. Jokic was averaging 20+ like he is now. Nobody would have been complaining about Murray. I mean Jokic averaged what, like 14 points in November? Hard for the P&R to be deadly when Jokic is averaging 14 points on 44% shooting and Murray's shooting 42% from the floor and 32% from 3. They were getting great looks. Jokic was getting open midrange jumpers. Some space. Murray was getting to the basket. Getting an open jumper. It just wasn't dropping IMO. Now it is, now the entire offense is rolling. Yeah and the argument always was the same. You'd post the number and say it's not too high. I'd say it's not the number, it's the type of turnovers. What other starting PGs did you see consistently making the errors he was? Getting pick pocketed multiple times in a game. Missing PnR passes with a wide window, etc. And I remember maybe one person agreeing you with the PnR. Maybe it was scooter? I just don't see how you can't see the improvement he's made. You're making it sound like he was completing these passes and Jokic wasn't attempting open floaters from 5 feet away. We're always going to disagree about this lol
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2019 20:41:51 GMT -5
In case anyone cares...Vanderbilts numbers through 2 games in the G league. 36 mins and 25/19/1 with 5 steals, 0 blocks and 7 turnovers. Turnovers are super high but those rebounds per 36
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Post by LotharBraunBrownBryant on Jan 31, 2019 20:44:09 GMT -5
I don't think Murray "magically" got better at the P&R. But he did start locating his passes a little bit better, and that makes a big difference in terms of Jokic catching the ball in a good position to shoot vs. a little off balance. At this level it's not always "doing things totally different"; sometimes it's a very slight adjustment that puts someone in better or worse balance or costs someone a fraction of a step.
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Post by inyourmind on Jan 31, 2019 20:44:38 GMT -5
But he wasn't getting pick pocketed multiple times a game? He was averaging 2.5 TO's while shooting a high volume of shots, and making a ton of passes. Like that's just a fact. He would have a bad turnover or two every now and than and people would go nuts in the game thread. Which happens to every single NBA PG in the history of the game. Harden and LeBron have brutal turnovers.
Outside of NT the narrative with Murray was 100% his shooting. It wasn't the pick and roll or his position. Jokic like I pointed out was averaging 14 points a game in November .. so yeah .. Jokic wasn't attempting certain points. He was scoring in October, but the past 2 months he's hit another level in terms of aggressiveness, just like Murray's been alot more efficient.
We won't agree on this lol I remember us arguing about this back than. I watched the games, seen good looks, they didn't fall and now they are. To each his own. I just think game threads are filled with wild overreactions. Sometimes I'm just as guilty.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2019 20:50:33 GMT -5
But he wasn't getting pick pocketed multiple times a game? He was averaging 2.5 TO's while shooting a high volume of shots, and making a ton of passes. Like that's just a fact. He would have a bad turnover or two every now and than and people would go nuts in the game thread. Which happens to every single NBA PG in the history of the game. Harden and LeBron have brutal turnovers. Outside of NT the narrative with Murray was 100% his shooting. It wasn't the pick and roll or his position. Jokic like I pointed out was averaging 14 points a game in November .. so yeah .. Jokic wasn't attempting certain points. He was scoring in October, but the past 2 months he's hit another level in terms of aggressiveness, just like Murray's been alot more efficient. We won't agree on this lol I remember us arguing about this back than. I watched the games, seen good looks, they didn't fall and now they are. To each his own. I just think game threads are filled with wild overreactions. Sometimes I'm just as guilty. And I definitely am guilty on the overreactions in game threads. But that's what game threads are for lol. If someone is playing awful aka Harris/Barton last night we're going to complain about it. I'm 100% happy with Murray right now though and it has nothing to do with his shooting. I wish he didn't have inconsistent shooting nights but they're going to happen because of his age. I'll live with that. But now he's learning to be impactful when his shot isn't on. He's just making better decisions right now. Same with Malik. The simple decision is usually the right one. Next step for Jamal IMO is to improve his lateral quickness and defensive awareness. He really needs to fight harder through screens because when he gets lost guys are open for 2-3 seconds before he's even able to contest. I really dislike that he bulked up in the offseason because it's affected his ability to blow by guys IMO. Could be the nagging injuries all year, idk. But this year it feels like he's not able to get to the hoop with the same ease he did last. But the extra weight probably helps him in the Joker/Murray PnR.
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Post by inyourmind on Jan 31, 2019 20:50:55 GMT -5
I don't think Murray "magically" got better at the P&R. But he did start locating his passes a little bit better, and that makes a big difference in terms of Jokic catching the ball in a good position to shoot vs. a little off balance. At this level it's not always "doing things totally different"; sometimes it's a very slight adjustment that puts someone in better or worse balance or costs someone a fraction of a step. Jokic shot attempts by month 13.4 12.2 15 18.8 That's a HUGE difference Murray's FG% and 3 point % by month .408/.278 .424/.329 .450/.358 .430/.452 I can do TO's too. 1.6, 2.7, 2.9, 2.0. Murray's APG is actually down compared to the previous 2 months, outside of October where they low in 7 games. I let it go but IMO people bitched about Murray and attacked his game because he was in a shooting slump and Jokic was being passive. If we come out of th gates with Murray shooting fine, and Jokic looking to dominate .. nobody wants to start Morris at PG and nobody thinks Murray's a 6th man. It wasn't about the pick and roll, where Murray was fine, it was about the surrounding things. If Jokic is aggressive, and Murray is knocking shots down in November .. than the pick and roll is fine.
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Post by inyourmind on Jan 31, 2019 20:58:12 GMT -5
Basically IMO the biggest improvement has been Jokic becoming more assertive and stepping up and Murray finally hitting shots that he should be hitting. Rather than Jokic passing up good looks, and Murray missing good looks. It's not that Murray started running a play better. The looks are exactly the same. Both of them are just taking advantage of it, rather than Jokic passing up the jumper or Murray missing a wide open look.
.. I'll leave it at that rather than beating it into the ground haha
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2019 20:58:59 GMT -5
Those numbers aren't relevant though man. Our argument has always been about him in the PnR as a playmaker. If those assists are just him swinging the ball to an open man it doesn't relate to our argument. Same thing as the turnovers.
Get me his assist/TO ratio in the PnR over the last 4 months. The raw assist/turnovers as well. I would be jaw on the floor shocked if they weren't much better in December and January. I don't know where to find those stats. I do know that this year is Jokics lowest assisted FG % year but a lot of that is probably due to him post ISOing more lately.
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