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Post by scooter on Sept 19, 2020 18:31:19 GMT -5
The founders did not envision what we're currently facing. They believed when it came down to it, everyone would put the country first. They were wrong. To be fair, the founders were not a homogenous group, had major disagreements, and were not thinking hundreds of years into the future. But they were united (to some extent) by a common enemy in the form of monarchical rule. They drafted a constitution for its time, and some hoped (I don't know that all cared) that future generations would amend it in good faith in the best interest of the country. Although GBG is correct in some respects about this political moment of crap (I'm not trying to wax eloquent here), I don't agree the US is done or that we are in the worst times of US history. The only part of the current political equation that is potentially permanent is environmental degradation, although the US never had unilateral control over that global problem.
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Post by GBG on Sept 19, 2020 19:39:02 GMT -5
The founders did not envision what we're currently facing. They believed when it came down to it, everyone would put the country first. They were wrong. To be fair, the founders were not a homogenous group, had major disagreements, and were not thinking hundreds of years into the future. But they were united (to some extent) by a common enemy in the form of monarchical rule. They drafted a constitution for its time, and some hoped (I don't know that all cared) that future generations would amend it in good faith in the best interest of the country. Although GBG is correct in some respects about this political moment of crap (I'm not trying to wax eloquent here), I don't agree the US is done or that we are in the worst times of US history. The only part of the current political equation that is potentially permanent is environmental degradation, although the US never had unilateral control over that global problem. It’s not the worst of times in US history (Civil War, Depression followed by WWII were more challenging), but I can easily say it’s the worst of times in my lifetime. One in which democracy itself is on the line. Turnout needs to beat all estimates, and the results of this election has to be overwhelmingly obvious, or else Barr and Trump will use tricks to gum up the PERCEPTION of results, including disinformation and cheating of various sorts. I’m more optimistic of Senate turning blue than of Trump conceding, and Barr will fight it through the legal system. In the end, social unrest and mass protest might work (to include a national general strike, perhaps). Ugly times indeed.
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Post by AbdulJabber on Sept 19, 2020 21:55:26 GMT -5
Sadly, the end results could be much worse than any other time in US history. We won't know how bad things can get until it's far too late to do anything about it. Once there's enough power concentrated in a small enough number of hands, justice, liberty and democracy will all look like a figment of some deranged lunatics imagination.
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Post by TNF on Sept 20, 2020 13:51:58 GMT -5
If Trump gets a second term, whether by hook or crook, it will be the worst of times imaginable.
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Post by scooter on Sept 20, 2020 16:11:30 GMT -5
If Trump gets a second term, whether by hook or crook, it will be the worst of times imaginable. Please don't get carried away. Trump isn't popular enough (his approval ratings have been in the red his entire presidency) or smart enough, there is and will remain a non-state run media (flawed as it is), the US still has a relatively educated and affluent population (not by GBG standards but certainly compared to 1920's Russia or Germany or the situation in various African nations which led to murderous totalitarian regimes), and while it is flawed, the US Constitution still has its strengths. While I have great respect and fondness for folks here like GBG and TNF and others, I don't share a doomsday outlook despite my opinion that Trump is the worst president in modern history, a crappy person, and has some enablers in government and the business community. BTW, I do not think that Bill Barr has the ability to tie the election up in the courts for an extended period of time unless the apparent voting margins are very tight, and the outcome is legitimately uncertain (as in 2000). I don't see the courts -- even many conservative federal judges -- being willing to go along with legitimacy of election arguments based on the kind of flimsy arguments and evidence that hold sway on Fox News but not in federal courthouses.
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Post by TNF on Sept 20, 2020 18:11:44 GMT -5
They were just talking politics and what the NBA players have done in the bubble when Barkley said (paraphrased), "I don't trust either one of the parties", and then went on to say he's been a lifetime Democrat. Charles, this doesn't help.
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Post by GBG on Sept 20, 2020 23:02:24 GMT -5
It’s all relative. Compared to the relatively high standard of living of Americans during my life, four more years of Trump will not only usher in a relatively autocratic period with the federal government, I believe it will ensure economic hardship on a scale we haven’t seen. Hoover on steroids. It hasn’t happened yet due to incredible borrowing and Federal Reserve support. This doesn’t last forever. A depression could be the result of COVID period, poor governance, poor leadership, and lost trust in America among our counterparties overseas. It’s a dire scenario, scooter, that I’d be glad to go into more detail with you offline if you wish. Combine economic hardship with social unrest, general instability, and political polarization, and we are heading to the abyss. A doomsday outlook.
Our institutions are more fragile than generally understood. And our national wealth could be squandered. I will leave it at that.
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Post by jimijam28 on Sept 20, 2020 23:29:54 GMT -5
Germany here I come if trump wins
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Post by scooter on Sept 21, 2020 10:35:24 GMT -5
It’s all relative. Compared to the relatively high standard of living of Americans during my life, four more years of Trump will not only usher in a relatively autocratic period with the federal government, I believe it will ensure economic hardship on a scale we haven’t seen. Hoover on steroids. It hasn’t happened yet due to incredible borrowing and Federal Reserve support. This doesn’t last forever. A depression could be the result of COVID period, poor governance, poor leadership, and lost trust in America among our counterparties overseas. It’s a dire scenario, scooter, that I’d be glad to go into more detail with you offline if you wish. Combine economic hardship with social unrest, general instability, and political polarization, and we are heading to the abyss. A doomsday outlook. Our institutions are more fragile than generally understood. And our national wealth could be squandered. I will leave it at that. I understand that there exist the ability to look at it from a certain lens and see doomsday. Personally, I think Americans have too much to lose, which is why we've already seen political pushback against Trumpism in the form of the 2018 elections (a nearly 9% advantage for Democrats in total House votes cast -- a truly massive political thumping of Trump's party) and in the threat to the Senate this cycle despite a very large structural advantage for Republicans. A heavy majority of Germans and Russians in 1920 had nothing much to lose (same thing in various very poor African nations that allowed the rise of murderous despots), and it's truly widespread desperate circumstances like that that created the climate for Hitler and Stalin. There is enormous wealth inequality in the US, but the standard of living by historical norms remains extremely high. In addition, Trumpism and its obvious racism threatens the long term success of the Republican party because of demographic changes that have taken place and continue to mount. That's why Republicans have turned to cheating, but there is a limit to how far that can take them given limits imposed by the Constitution. Yes, "norms" have been broken, but the norm breaking amounts to bending the US political system, not breaking it.
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Post by GBG on Sept 21, 2020 16:32:52 GMT -5
Yes, "norms" have been broken, but the norm breaking amounts to bending the US political system, not breaking it. America’s constitutional system of government, a representative democracy, works until it doesn’t. Corruption and $$$ in politics have certainly bent the system, but what is breaking it is when WH officials can successfully ignore House subpoenas with impunity, and other failures of oversight and system of checks and balances have occurred. We have lawlessness run amok, and societal polarization due to social media disinformation and Fox News has the populace confused and bamboozled. Read this Atlantic article about a new book out regarding the Mueller investigation: www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/09/andrew-weissmann-mueller-book-where-law-ends/616395/A confused electorate combined with complete corruption, and we are about to lose our democracy if we aren’t very careful. Combine that with double digit unemployment, most Americans not having savings to get through periods of hardship, a pandemic that is still with us, and an overly indebted nation that is adding trillions now of debt each year going forward, combined with gridlock if we don’t have unified government.....and yes, this is a shitstorm and may turn America into something FUBAR. IF we are lucky, it will be something less dire than that picture I paint. I believe we won’t be so lucky, but Biden winning and Senate turning blue would help prevent an absolutely worst case scenario. Lacking both those things, we are indeed hard-pressed to avoid some very unpleasant outcomes.
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Post by TNF on Sept 21, 2020 18:25:18 GMT -5
100% agree. Too stoned to add anything at this time.
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Post by GBG on Sept 21, 2020 18:49:32 GMT -5
I will add this tweet...
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Post by fortcollinsnuggets on Sept 23, 2020 9:37:54 GMT -5
They were just talking politics and what the NBA players have done in the bubble when Barkley said (paraphrased), "I don't trust either one of the parties", and then went on to say he's been a lifetime Democrat. Charles, this doesn't help. Barkley playing the media. Look at what he said about being a Republican to his grandma back in day. I agree that both parties suck. Both Biden and Trump are horrible. Barkley I bet has voted for both parties in the past.fwiw
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Post by fortcollinsnuggets on Sept 23, 2020 9:39:04 GMT -5
Every leadership from every civilization since the start of mankind has been corrupted. Lets not forget this.
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Post by scooter on Sept 23, 2020 11:57:24 GMT -5
They were just talking politics and what the NBA players have done in the bubble when Barkley said (paraphrased), "I don't trust either one of the parties", and then went on to say he's been a lifetime Democrat. Charles, this doesn't help. Barkley playing the media. Look at what he said about being a Republican to his grandma back in day. I agree that both parties suck. Both Biden and Trump are horrible. Barkley I bet has voted for both parties in the past.fwiw Both parties do not suck. The Democrats delivered most of the laws that created the US middle class, substantially reduced poverty, created much greater opportunities for people other than white men, created worker's rights, placed limits on industry pollution, and greatly expanded the benefits of health insurance. Here's a short list of legislation passed by Democrats against Republican opposition: Social Security (the biggest and most successful anti-poverty program in the country's history) Medicare Medicaid The Civil Rights Act of 1964 (outlawing discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, sex or national origin, and it has been interpreted by the Supreme Court to apply to sexual orientation and gender identity as part of "sex") The Fair Labor Standards Act (established federal minimum wage, overtime pay etc.) (passed in 1938) The Family and Medical Leave Act The Americans with Disabilities Act The Age Discrimination in Employment Act The Affordable Care Act (which among many other things prohibits health insurers from excluding coverage for pre-existing conditions including such incredibly common conditions as high blood pressure, diabetes, immune system disorders, cancer, blood disorders, asthma, heart conditions etc., reducing by tens of millions the number of personal bankruptcies arising from medical bills previously excluded by insurers) The Clean Air Act of 1963 The Clean Water Act (originally the Federal Water Pollution Control Act of 1948) The GI Bill (originally the Serviceman's Readjustment Act of 1944) (although its benefits went almost exclusively to whites in the post-WWII years as part of our history of systemic racism) Nearly every law that improved the lives, opportunities, security and standard of living of 95% (or more) of Americans since the 1935 passage of the Social Security Act has been passed by Democrats, while the Republican party overwhelmingly opposed such laws.
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Post by GBG on Sept 23, 2020 17:02:09 GMT -5
What scooter wrote is absolutely true. I will say there was a time when moderate to center-right republicans did things to improve people’s lives. Eisenhower developed the Interstate Highway system, Reagan was for immigrant amnesty and pathway to citizenship, Nixon established the EPA and once proposed nationalizing healthcare. I’m sure there are other examples.
That Republican Party no longer exists. It is now a corrupted, xenophobic, exclusionary and authoritarian party that won’t provide checks and balances as the co-equal branches of government were designed to do. IMO, the ultimate destination of the GOP in the event Trump holds onto power and Senate doesn’t return to Democratic control is a form of fascism. No, not the genocidal version of the 3rd Reich, and not Mussolini version, but a uniquely Americanized version of “soft fascism”. It will be meant to provide White Christian ethnostate, friendlier to corporate power than ever.
90% of progress in America in the 20th century was driven by Democrats. Republicans opposed most of it. The 21st century has seen a dramatic widening of wealth and income inequality and increase in corporate power. Obama era had limited successes, mainly the ACA, but progress was blocked by Mitch McConnell and his filibustering in Senate. Trumpism is hard right and for the wealthy by fooling the White working undereducated demographics, mainly male. It is racist, sexist, and exclusionary.
No way is GOP = Dems in suckitude. That is a false equivalency. The only area they do both suck, though, is in being captured by the military industrial complex. Defense budget needs to be cut 50% over next decade, or something along those lines, but it will never happen with either party in control.
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Post by TNF on Sept 23, 2020 18:20:16 GMT -5
The Democratic Party and most of its candidates are, let's face it, meh. Rarely super-exciting and even rarer, (god forbid!), revolutionary, they are, in general, the party of laws and common decency.
The Repubs used to be (only), hypocritical, white, Christians or white rich people. Now they are zombified criminals.
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Post by GBG on Sept 23, 2020 19:39:29 GMT -5
Ugh...wtf is wrong with white men? (Of which I am one)...
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Post by GBG on Sept 24, 2020 10:52:41 GMT -5
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Post by jimijam28 on Sept 24, 2020 11:01:36 GMT -5
its going to get ugly in Nov,,,
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