|
Post by ruru on May 28, 2009 13:45:29 GMT -5
What I intended to state as unquantifiable was the effect that particular calls made at particular junctures in the game. And the fact that if you think you can't say that ALL those calls together helped us lose the game THEN you can't say that they DIDN'T help us lose the game either still holds true. This is a matter of opinion in which we obviously disagree. Stop creating your own antagonist arguments to demolish. No one here said the refs knew exactly what to do and when - I don't believe in ESP. By now I think it's clear my argument is not even close to that. That's what you are trying to make my argument be. All I am saying is that the refs were clearly with the intent too kill or injure the Nuggets, and the opportunities showed up. Continuing with my guns analogy from before, what you are saying is that if someone shoots you and happen to hit you in the head, unless they had planned to hit you in the head they were not planning to hurt you... That's absurd. The refs didn't have to know where and when exactly to hit the Nuggets, as long as they seize the opportunities that appear over the course of the game, and there are ALWAYS plenty. There was the opportunity to take Nene out on cheap calls, and they clearly took it. You could argue that one accidental call can always happen - but as many as three stupid calls on the same player over the course of one game (while not calling about anything on the player covering him - only one foul on Gasol?) is enough to presume malice over just sheer incompetence. And it's not like they were trying to make the CLIPPERS win over the Nuggets. We are talking about the Lakers - they are a pretty good team, they don't need much help to win over us. I don't know what is so hard to understand about this: YES, the Nuggets could have won, and the fact they committed stupid mistakes might have cost them the win if they had not happened. BUT the officiating ALSO had an influence on both the DIRECT result and in our players actions, as mistakes got compounded with the unfair calls and obviously generated more desperation than would be needed on a fairly called game. One final rock to put over this argument is this question: how much do you think we would have blown the Lakers by if the calls were inverted? If, let's say, they take Gasol out by calling cheap calls on him, how much do you think the Lakers can hang on with the Nuggets (And making it clear so you don't distort my argument again, I'm not saying taking Gasol out is the same as taking Nene out - just using a similar weighted hindrance to what we had because of the calls, including Billups, Nene, etc.)? If the calls were inverted, would that be enough too make us win, despite our mistakes (the Lakers commited a lot of mistakes as well, but they won...)? If yes, then the reffing had an important influence, PERIOD. I'm not arguing that the refs don't influence the game. That's of course pretty clear. It did seem that there was a very stragne whistle against Nene, but going back and reviewing all fo the crucial plays, the officiating was not one-sided enough to be viewed as an intentional rig-job. We had a ton of chances that we simply blew and we got our fair share of calls. if you want me to recap all the call we recieved in the third and fourth quarter I can do that.
|
|
|
Post by ruru on May 28, 2009 13:49:58 GMT -5
We should've played DJ, too. He had a +/- of +4, the second highest on the team. Plus/minus is a stat that shouldn't be taken seriously. Nene's offensive production was almost nonexistent. 1-3 FG from the floor and a blown lay-up that could've put us in position to win the game. As far as Nene's defensive production goes, Pau Gasol has made Nene his b*tch the entire series. Top 5 Center my ss. Even if he is anywhere close to the elite at his position, it's because the center position is watered down and talentless for the most part. He has the potential to be an elite center, but the guy is as inconsistent as they come. Rebounding? Blocking and challenging shots? LMAO. Nene has become Boris Diaw with muscle and a mean streak. he facilitates our 4-3 offense. As Scooter points out, he does a ton of things that are entirely underrated. Yes, he has soft possesions (as all of the guys do), no he isn;t a great 2-foot rebound jumper, but he has consisitently controlled the boards for us in these playoffs against bigger players, he makes a higher percentage of correct decisions than any other interior player, and plus he can finish,run, etc.
|
|
ru
Joe Wolf Towel Boy
Posts: 264
|
Post by ru on May 28, 2009 14:10:24 GMT -5
We should've played DJ, too. He had a +/- of +4, the second highest on the team. Plus/minus is a stat that shouldn't be taken seriously. Did you watch the game? Jones was terribad. First you say Jones should have played more because of his +/-, then say the stat you're quoting shouldn't be taken seriously. Don't know how you could say Jones was terribad? Got 9 points in half the minutes of others that scored less and played pretty good D on Kobe and got to the line, though he missed some FTs.
|
|
|
Post by Tydru on May 28, 2009 14:38:48 GMT -5
A.) I watched the game. He was terribad. B.) It took him 8 FGA and 8 FTA to get those 9 points. Guys with similar shot attempts: Ariza took 7 FGA and 6 FTA = 12pts Gasol took 8 FGA and 5 FTA = 14pts Chauncey took 7 FGA and 1 FTA = 12pts Kleiza took 6 FGA and 5 FTA = 10pts C.) He had 2 turnovers in 15 minutes. The only other guys on the team that had that many played 40, 26, and 39 minutes respectively. D.) Looking at the entire box score... he was roughly equivilent to Luke Walton, just less efficient.
|
|
|
Post by scooter on May 28, 2009 15:10:08 GMT -5
I don't think the officiating was the result of a conspiracy, but there is no question there remains a "star system" in the NBA that has not changed. Lebron James plays an extremely physical game and never ever fouls out. In game 4, Phil Jackson holds the game up for 60 seconds by refusing to sub in for Luke Walton and gets no T, only a warning, which was ridiculous. When Kobe said he would not get another T after it was pointed out 2 more T's would get him suspended, he knew he could not only predict the future but could influence it.
The officiating has not been obviously biased overall, but examples abound of inconsistency and star treatment.
|
|
|
Post by ruru on May 28, 2009 15:13:02 GMT -5
No doubt about that Scooter.
|
|
|
Post by Phonzie20 on May 28, 2009 15:18:51 GMT -5
I don't think the officiating was the result of a conspiracy, but there is no question there remains a "star system" in the NBA that has not changed. Lebron James plays an extremely physical game and never ever fouls out. In game 4, Phil Jackson holds the game up for 60 seconds by refusing to sub in for Luke Walton and gets no T, only a warning, which was ridiculous. When Kobe said he would not get another T after it was pointed out 2 more T's would get him suspended, he knew he could not only predict the future but could influence it. The officiating has not been obviously biased overall, but examples abound of inconsistency and star treatment. Yes. It's not a conspiracy perse, but there is an issue the NBA refuses to correct that will bounce Denver in the next few days. Especially when they play at Staples.
|
|
|
Post by Tydru on May 28, 2009 15:48:23 GMT -5
I don't think the officiating was the result of a conspiracy, but there is no question there remains a "star system" in the NBA that has not changed. Lebron James plays an extremely physical game and never ever fouls out. In game 4, Phil Jackson holds the game up for 60 seconds by refusing to sub in for Luke Walton and gets no T, only a warning, which was ridiculous. When Kobe said he would not get another T after it was pointed out 2 more T's would get him suspended, he knew he could not only predict the future but could influence it. The officiating has not been obviously biased overall, but examples abound of inconsistency and star treatment. So... a group of people all agree to treat certain players/coaches/people differently than everyone else, thus giving those certain players/coaches/people an advantage. How is that not a conspiracy? It may not be as deep as David Stern fixing games, but it the very definition of the word 'consipracy.'
|
|
ru
Joe Wolf Towel Boy
Posts: 264
|
Post by ru on May 28, 2009 20:18:03 GMT -5
A.) I watched the game. He was terribad. B.) It took him 8 FGA and 8 FTA to get those 9 points. Guys with similar shot attempts: Ariza took 7 FGA and 6 FTA = 12pts Gasol took 8 FGA and 5 FTA = 14pts Chauncey took 7 FGA and 1 FTA = 12pts Kleiza took 6 FGA and 5 FTA = 10pts C.) He had 2 turnovers in 15 minutes. The only other guys on the team that had that many played 40, 26, and 39 minutes respectively. D.) Looking at the entire box score... he was roughly equivilent to Luke Walton, just less efficient. I think those comparisons are apples and oranges. Also of note, Jones played zero minutes in 4Q when game slipped away.
|
|
|
Post by bundo's ghost on May 28, 2009 22:53:35 GMT -5
A.) I watched the game. He was terribad. B.) It took him 8 FGA and 8 FTA to get those 9 points. Guys with similar shot attempts: Ariza took 7 FGA and 6 FTA = 12pts Gasol took 8 FGA and 5 FTA = 14pts Chauncey took 7 FGA and 1 FTA = 12pts Kleiza took 6 FGA and 5 FTA = 10pts C.) He had 2 turnovers in 15 minutes. The only other guys on the team that had that many played 40, 26, and 39 minutes respectively. D.) Looking at the entire box score... he was roughly equivilent to Luke Walton, just less efficient. A point-to-shot comparison can be misleading---Jones is not a three point shooter or a big man. Jones attacks the basket, boosts our transition offense, draws fouls, and can build momentum (with a dunk). His aggressiveness is something that I admire on both offense and defense. Hell...even without the talent that JR has, DJ had more of a positive impact on the game. That doesn't mean that I want DJ taking JR's playing time. JR is going to put this team over the top when he pulls his head out of his ss and stops having nights with 1-10 3P FG shooting. And I thought I made it pretty obvious that the desire to give jones more playing time was sarcastic.
|
|
|
Post by zeeman on May 28, 2009 23:54:21 GMT -5
Lets stop complaining about the refs. Home cookin always happens, nothing you can do other than be the $#1 seed. lakers earned the #1 seed.
Nuggets needed a 10 point lead going into the 3rd Q on the road, and they blew it. Nuggets sucked down the stretch
Anology: Boxing fight= Refs are gonna give the benefit of the doubt to the champ, or the perceptively the more popular team in this case. IN a draw Muhamed ALI wins draws, because he is the Champ!
|
|
|
Post by ruru on May 29, 2009 1:37:40 GMT -5
A.) I watched the game. He was terribad. B.) It took him 8 FGA and 8 FTA to get those 9 points. Guys with similar shot attempts: Ariza took 7 FGA and 6 FTA = 12pts Gasol took 8 FGA and 5 FTA = 14pts Chauncey took 7 FGA and 1 FTA = 12pts Kleiza took 6 FGA and 5 FTA = 10pts C.) He had 2 turnovers in 15 minutes. The only other guys on the team that had that many played 40, 26, and 39 minutes respectively. D.) Looking at the entire box score... he was roughly equivilent to Luke Walton, just less efficient. A point-to-shot comparison can be misleading---Jones is not a three point shooter or a big man. Jones attacks the basket, boosts our transition offense, draws fouls, and can build momentum (with a dunk). His aggressiveness is something that I admire on both offense and defense. Hell...even without the talent that JR has, DJ had more of a positive impact on the game. That doesn't mean that I want DJ taking JR's playing time. JR is going to put this team over the top when he pulls his head out of his ss and stops having nights with 1-10 3P FG shooting. And I thought I made it pretty obvious that the desire to give jones more playing time was sarcastic. I like DJ, but he's effective becuase he's never guarded. Jr Smith makes us much more difficult to guard. And look, we simply have to accept that JR missed shots that he'll normally make at a much higher rate. It happened to Ray Allen in the previous series. The Lakers are giving us open jump-shots. And yes, we are the best attacking team in the league, but sometimes when team's as long as the Lakerspack the paint-- you have to take open jump-shots. And who better than the guy who is on pace to be one of the great all-time 3pt shooters? Again, we have shot terrible this series. And to think that we really should be winning this series against the Lakers despite that, only confirms to me that we have the better team. JR is due for a groove. He's going to go into one of his modes soon. One of those 13-18 stretches, or 14-22 stretches from 3. If it doesn't happen this summer in a pick-up game, or next year, it's going to happen in games 6 and or 7. If JR can give us what he's due for in this series I think we'll win it. So long as he saves some for both games.
|
|
|
Post by anon on May 29, 2009 1:46:38 GMT -5
I think JR has been playing tight the whole series. He plays much better when we're ahead... actually the entire team does. I think the pressure gets to them a bit. Sometimes it feels like we're playing not to lose, rather than to win.
Hopefully, they decide to take the attitude that "we've got nothing else to lose" and just relax tomorrow, rather than playing even tighter.
|
|
larulez
Monte Towe Benchwarmer
Posts: 20
|
Post by larulez on May 29, 2009 2:10:14 GMT -5
I am going to feed this troll.
Have you even watched the games in this series? Denver the weaker team? You do realize that LA stole game 1 don't you? Then Game 3 could have gone either way as well as the blowout we delivered to your "stronger" team in game 5.
Nuggs have led in this series allot more than the Lakers and on the most part have controlled the pace of the game. LAst night wa the only game that LA took us off our game for short periods of time.
We are going to win Game 6 and I am sure you will dissapear after that only to return if the Lakers are able to win game 7.
errrr...OK..I will accept your "food"...and then throw it up in your face...and say...
the Lakers have played DOWN to their competition...this is what MOST pundits have said about the Lake Show. They are "bored" by lesser teams. This may be their downfall.. trust me, Denver isn't their downfall...but the truth remains the same...the Nuggets are not in the same league.
Some (NOT ME) believe the Lakers are not playing up their level of competition...I believe this is a David Stern FIX!!!
I have been an NBA fan since the days of Magic and Bird and I have NEVER seen a more corrupt league!!
I do NOT believe ANYTHING this league does...and I say it as a Laker fan..this is ALL FIXED!!!
|
|
|
Post by blagrange on May 29, 2009 10:43:47 GMT -5
I am going to feed this troll.
Have you even watched the games in this series? Denver the weaker team? You do realize that LA stole game 1 don't you? Then Game 3 could have gone either way as well as the blowout we delivered to your "stronger" team in game 5.
Nuggs have led in this series allot more than the Lakers and on the most part have controlled the pace of the game. LAst night wa the only game that LA took us off our game for short periods of time.
We are going to win Game 6 and I am sure you will dissapear after that only to return if the Lakers are able to win game 7. errrr...OK..I will accept your "food"...and then throw it up in your face...and say... the Lakers have played DOWN to their competition...this is what MOST pundits have said about the Lake Show. They are "bored" by lesser teams. This may be their downfall.. trust me, Denver isn't their downfall...but the truth remains the same...the Nuggets are not in the same league. Some (NOT ME) believe the Lakers are not playing up their level of competition...I believe this is a David Stern FIX!!! I have been an NBA fan since the days of Magic and Bird and I have NEVER seen a more corrupt league!! I do NOT believe ANYTHING this league does...and I say it as a Laker fan..this is ALL FIXED!!! A team is only as good as they play. If they are not playing to their potential then they have done this for 10+ games in a row going back to the Rockets series. I woudl say the Nuggs are not playing to their potential either! I would say the Lakers you see now are the best they can be and right now with a play or two going the other way your Lakers would be on the ropes. I can not fathom a reason why Stern would have a conspiracy against a team with Kobe Bryant on it.
|
|
|
Post by Tydru on May 29, 2009 10:53:09 GMT -5
I can not fathom a reason why Stern would have a conspiracy against a team with Kobe Bryant on it. He doesn't like rapists and adulterers? Oh wait, apparently he does.
|
|
|
Post by scooter on May 29, 2009 12:56:30 GMT -5
I don't think the officiating was the result of a conspiracy, but there is no question there remains a "star system" in the NBA that has not changed. Lebron James plays an extremely physical game and never ever fouls out. In game 4, Phil Jackson holds the game up for 60 seconds by refusing to sub in for Luke Walton and gets no T, only a warning, which was ridiculous. When Kobe said he would not get another T after it was pointed out 2 more T's would get him suspended, he knew he could not only predict the future but could influence it. The officiating has not been obviously biased overall, but examples abound of inconsistency and star treatment. So... a group of people all agree to treat certain players/coaches/people differently than everyone else, thus giving those certain players/coaches/people an advantage. How is that not a conspiracy? It may not be as deep as David Stern fixing games, but it the very definition of the word 'consipracy.' The reason I do not think its a conspiracy is that it isn't discussed, its understood. Not a word needs to be said. That said, the thing that is driving me crazy is all of the fouls called on defenders when the offensive player is creating most of the contact. If they don't want to call an offensive foul because the defender moved a little (like the 6th fouls called on Nene on Wednesday and Howard last night), fine, just don't blow the whistle. The number of fouls is too high and too many of them are against interior defenders who are just trying to play some defense against a guy taking the ball to the basket. The idea that its a foul because they didn't run out of the way fast enough just seems stupid to me.
|
|
jutang
Joe Wolf Towel Boy
Posts: 234
|
Post by jutang on May 29, 2009 18:31:24 GMT -5
Officiating aside, K Mart played horrible in the 4th quarter. He missed some key shots that were all open looks and made some silly fouls at the end of the 4th similar to game 1.
It's maddening that the Nuggets have led most of the games and lost 2 out of 3. Maybe it's a growing up stage a young team has to go through that the Lakers went through last yr against the Celtics, but it sucks to know they could have sealed this series if not for the mental errors in the 4th.
|
|