Bush

[Master Yoda]

My brother -who spent 9 months living in a dirt hole, knee deep in dead Iraqis, during a quest for fictional WMDs- hates Bush.

He is just a Jarhead, but he has more than half a brain. Barely.

My point? None really. Go Rams.

LOL, quality post

[LotharBraunBrownBryant]

Lubick said:

My brother -who spent 9 months living in a dirt hole....

Why did your brother join the military?

[GrandKenyon]

People join the military either because they like to kill people, they're poor, or they can't afford college. It's a sick system. Not that I want the draft re-instated or anything. I'd rather rot in a jail cell than in a mass-grave in Iraq.

[LotharBraunBrownBryant]

I didn't ask you why Lubick's brother joined the military...I asked Lubick. But I'll address your remarks, since there's something curious there:

GrandKenyon said:

People join the military either because they like to kill people, they're poor, or they can't afford college.

... or because they want to protect their families

You seem to be really, really, REALLY bad at coming up with complete lists of why people do the things they do. Your lists are always very jaded -- like you only see one side of any issue, and have no interest in even acknowledging the possibility of another side existing.

Not that I want the draft re-instated or anything.

There were two bills in congress relating to starting up the draft again. Do you know what political party all of the sponsors were from? (HINT: it starts with a D.)

[GrandKenyon]

What the f**k kind of a psycho goes to war to protect his family from illigitimate threats? New York has reported the fewest soldiers of any of the 48 continental states, all the podunk rednecks overseas are doing it because it's the only way they can make a life, and they're dying for it. Pretty ironic. I don't think Osama will be going after the cornfields any time soon. Stupid.

[LotharBraunBrownBryant]

Somebody deserves a fisking...

GrandKenyon said:

What the f**k kind of a psycho goes to war to protect his family from illigitimate threats?

Yeah really, what threat?

www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/lgf-september11-slideshow.php/

New York has reported the fewest soldiers of any of the 48 continental states

Do you have a source for this?

Is it the fewest soldiers total, or per capita? Are you counting new recruits since 9/11 or total soldiers serving? Are you accounting for the fact that NY also had to replace hundreds of firemen and police officers (from the same demographic pool)?

all the podunk rednecks...

Yeah, if they're not from NYC they're rednecks.

... overseas are doing it because it's the only way they can make a life

www.pat-tillman.org/

and they're dying for it.

In fairly small numbers, overall. See www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/ for some historical perspective.

I don't think Osama will be going after the cornfields any time soon.

He would if he had enough spare bombs. They're just not his first target.

Stupid.

I believe that's the position you've established for yourself. No wonder you don't engage anything I say. You just keep dragging out more tired DNC talking points instead of thinking for yourself. When you get shut down on a point you just move on to a different one. That's a sure sign that you're not doing your own thinking. Yet you accuse Bush supporters of being "sheep"... heh.

[Lubick]

LotharBot said:

Why did your brother join the military?

A couple reasons: money for college, something to do, prove his manhood, but mainly he his a patriotic sumova b***h. He joined the marines in Dec 99 and gets out in 2 months!

He still loves the Corps and the US, but he feels pretty betrayed by the whole Iraq thing. He's never gotten into specifics with me but I'm really not pushing the issue.

[GrandKenyon]

Surely a math teacher wouldn't ignore such disgust.

[cambrad]

GrandKenyon said:

Surely a math teacher wouldn't ignore such disgust.

I wonder where september 11th figures into that....oh nevermind!

edit: oh yeah, and that dot.com crash

[GrandKenyon]

Vietnam cost more than 9/11...why didn't it plummet then?

[LotharBraunBrownBryant]

GrandKenyon said:

[snip: large image]

Surely a math teacher wouldn't ignore such disgust.

Even if I trusted those "projected" numbers (which tend to undergo half a dozen revisions) I don't particularly care about budget deficits.

It's what happens when you give a tax cut AND have a poor economy (9/11 + dotcom burst) AND spend a lot of money on a war AND don't reduce spending elsewhere.

I'm truly not that worried about it.

Long-term, the government can only spend as much money as it takes in through taxes. Deficits and surpluses are short-term effects of short-term spending / taxation patterns -- but in the long term, it all washes out. The fact is, we have a huge deficit right now -- and in a few years the deficit might be tiny, and then in another few years it might be huge again, and then we might have a huge surplus, and so on. It's kinda like... a year ago, I was saving up pretty much the whole year and didn't buy anything, so I had like $6000 in my savings account, plus a few thousand in retirement (a nice budget surplus for a grad student.) But in May, I bought a new car, and that means I owe the bank a lot of money over the next 5 years (that's a huge budget deficit.) But neither the surplus nor the deficit particularly matter -- what matters is how my spending, long-term, compares to my income long-term. As long as I don't start defaulting on loans or payments (meaning I stick to the amount of credit my bank is willing to give me), there isn't a problem. Similarly, as long as the government doesn't start defaulting on loans or payments, there isn't a problem with them running a deficit.

Now, what I want for the government is lower spending long-term (which means lower income long-term.) I don't care about budget deficits OR surplusses -- those are both short-term effects. By cutting taxes, Bush has assured that in the long term, the government will spend less money (because it can't run up a deficit larger than the amount of credit people are willing to extend it) -- and that's exactly what I want. In the short-term, there will be a deficit (which does mean the government will waste some money on interest) which is something I'd rather avoid, but it's not a huge deal. What matters is that, in the long run, the government will have less money available which means it'll be able to spend less.

------------------------------

I wanted to point out... again, you changed the subject. Instead of trying to discuss anything in-depth and gain some understanding or answer my objections, you're just throwing every issue you can think of at me and hoping some of it sticks. You're basically just repeating a John Kerry campaign speech (one post at a time) for me. But that doesn't work on me -- because I've thought a lot about every issue I care about, asked questions, debated people on both sides, listened to candidates speeches and interviews and read websites, and discussed the issues to my satisfaction. By simply DNC talking points, you're not giving me any new information -- you're just putting forth questions I've already thought about and answered.

The fact that you're completely unwilling (or unable) to go into further depth on any issue -- and instead just keep putting forth sound-bite-level analysis of any issue you can think of -- makes me wonder if you actually know enough about any of these issues to be making an informed decision about the election. So far, nothing you've said to me has been any deeper than what I could pick up listening to a single debate speech, so that makes me wonder if you actually KNOW anything deeper than what you got from Kerry's last campaign speech.

Tell me, are you voting for Kerry because you understand the issues (deeper than sound-bite level) and are making an informed decision? Judging from what you've posted, and the fact that you haven't answered any of my objections, you don't seem to understand any of the issues well enough to discuss them beyond sound-bite level. Maybe you can prove me wrong... but I'm not holding my breath.

[cambrad]

GrandKenyon said:

Vietnam cost more than 9/11...why didn't it plummet then?

Because Vietnam was a war halfway across the globe. It didn't affect the U.S. as much as an attack on our soil would.

9/11 actually saw two jetliners crash into our nation's economy, literally.

[GrandKenyon]

mp3.dubyaspeak.com/terriblepilot.mp3

[LotharBraunBrownBryant]

Nice sound-bite. It fits in with the rest of your sound-bite level analysis, and your refusal to actually think about issues. I've given you chances to prove me wrong, but you just keep coming back with soundbites and DNC talking points. Here, have some context (google is your friend):

Q One thing, Mr. President, is that you have no idea how much you've done for this country. And another thing is that, how did you feel when you heard about the terrorist attack? (Applause.)

THE PRESIDENT: Thank you, Jordan. Well, Jordan, you're not going to believe what state I was in when I heard about the terrorist attack. I was in Florida. And my Chief of Staff, Andy Card -- actually, I was in a classroom talking about a reading program that works. I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower -- the TV was obviously on. And I used to fly, myself, and I said, well, there's one terrible pilot. I said, it must have been a horrible accident.

But I was whisked off there, I didn't have much time to think about it. And I was sitting in the classroom, and Andy Card, my Chief of Staff, who is sitting over here, walked in and said, "A second plane has hit the tower, America is under attack."

And, Jordan, I wasn't sure what to think at first. You know, I grew up in a period of time where the idea of America being under attack never entered my mind -- just like your Daddy's and Mother's mind probably. And I started thinking hard in that very brief period of time about what it meant to be under attack. I knew that when I got all of the facts that we were under attack, there would be hell to pay for attacking America.

www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/12/20011204-17.html

Gee, look at that... Bush, like most of the rest of us, didn't realize it was an attack until the second plane hit. Those of us in the Western half of the country probably weren't awake until both planes had hit, so we don't understand that -- but those on the East coast were awake when the first plane hit, and many had the same reactions. Those who tuned in to the news and saw the first tower burning, before the second plane hit, almost universally had that reaction -- "some idiot crashed his plane into the tower. Wonder what stunt he was trying to pull?"

I hope everyone else has realized how our friend GrandKenyon refuses to actually engage any issues or answer questions. He refuses to discuss anything beyond the sound-bite level. He just keeps throwing out garbage and hoping some of it sticks. Maybe he should change his name to "stupid sheep".

[GrandKenyon]

Like Osama said, even after he heard of the second plane hitting, he stuck around and listened to a girl talk about goats.  

That's my Bush!

[LotharBraunBrownBryant]

GrandKenyon said:

Like Osama said

... MOST CREDIBLE SOURCE EVAR! ...

even after he heard of the second plane hitting, he stuck around and listened to a girl talk about goats.

Apparently Osama is a fan of Michael Moore. The TWO most credible sources ever...

What do you propose he should've done? Got in his F102A and shot down the plane over Pennsylvania himself? I still haven't heard anyone give any plausible statement about what Bush *should've* done, only complaints that he somehow did the wrong thing.

Anyway... the fact is, Osama's message is clearly crafted to make people vote against Bush. He's telling people "Bush could've stopped the attacks" -- and, more than that, he's telling people "if you change your policy it'll protect you" (and we all know which candidate will change US policy.) That sounds to me like a ringing endorsement for Kerry. So let's see... Kerry is the candidate of choice of: Osama, North Korea, Iran, Communist China, Zaptero (Spain), and Yasser Arafat. I again refer you to my earlier statement: whoever the terrorists want to win, vote for the other guy.

[GrandKenyon]

Since Bush has done such a good job protecting us thus far.

I'll be fine either way. Kerry will make peace with the people that hate us, or pansies like you will watch, dumbfounded, as the country is bombed to hell when/if your leader Bush is re-upped. I hope Osama brings all the big guns if Kerry doesn't win. If America is stupid enough to vote for Bush, then America deserves to die.

Luckily, the prior will come ture.

[LotharBraunBrownBryant]

Man, you just convinced me... that was a brilliant way to get me to vote for your guy -- tell me you hope me and the rest of the country gets wiped out if we vote for the other guy.

GrandKenyon said:

Kerry will make peace with the people that hate us

Wow... you really *are* stupid.

The only way to "make peace with the people that hate us" is to convert to Islam (the Wahabi sect, with Taliban style laws) and allow them to commit genocide against the Jews and anyone else who doesn't convert.

Short of that... there is no peace, there are only temporary cease fires.

Our culture itself -- and even our very existance -- offend the terrorists. They don't like a culture that gives women equal rights. They don't like a culture that lets people choose what religion to follow. They don't like any culture that isn't in line with their super-strict interpretation of the Koran. And they're not willing to coexist. (Note: I'm not saying this about all Muslims -- just about the extremists like Bin Laden.) They're not willing to coexist with people who follow other religions, and they're not willing to coexist with Jews at all.

If you WANT to make peace with them -- if you still think it's possible -- you're an idiot.

.... watch, dumbfounded, as the country is bombed to hell when/if your leader Bush is re-upped.

Doubtful. If they had the power to strike, they'd do it before the elections, not after. WHEN Bush wins, the terrorists will go into full retreat mode. The only thing that gives them hope is a Kerry presidency -- which is why Osama repeated the DNC talking points in his video. He wants Kerry to win, because he knows a Kerry victory gives him the best change of his own victory.

I hope Osama brings all the big guns if Kerry doesn't win.

Your hatred for Bush runs so deep that you're not able to even *pretend* to engage the issues, but instead, you wish death upon those who disagree with you. No wonder you won't argue any of the issues with me -- you're blinded by hatred. Yet you have the gonads to call Bush supporters "stupid" and "sheep"... heh.

If America is stupid enough to vote for Bush, then America deserves to die.

So do you think we deserved what we got on 9/11?

When this thread started, you were at least pretending to discuss the issues. But it's clear now that you don't have a rational understanding of any of the issues. You're motivated by pure hatred, and it's clouded your judgement.

If I was a Kerry supporter... being on the same side as people like you would make me change my vote.

[GrandKenyon]

I don't want you to change your mind, I'm glad you're on the right.

Osama...go to Seattle.

[LotharBraunBrownBryant]

Oh, well that makes it all better then.