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Post by odvala on Jan 12, 2020 9:35:42 GMT -5
From the moment Beasley declined to sign extention with the Nuggets (3/30) i was the first one to urge Juancho/Beasley/Garris for Jrue trade while those players had way higher value then they have now. TC wanna stick with the continuity and lose players for free. When other teams trade for random player we laugh and whoever propose a certain trade is either a hater(not homer) or when it becomes obvious, then those players doesn't worth s**t right? Vision and guts is something that TC is never going to have...
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Post by jimijam28 on Jan 12, 2020 11:08:18 GMT -5
IF you want to jrue you going to have to give up MPJ - period- they are not taking that trade never.
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Post by odvala on Jan 12, 2020 12:21:23 GMT -5
IF you want to jrue you going to have to give up MPJ - period- they are not taking that trade never. Good GM make a trade year earlier, not year later. Vision and guts. Now suck it up and lose valuable trade assets before the season for nothing or late 2nd round pick at best and pray that Garris somehow becomes a 2017 version of himself. But at the time when the deal was doable, i was labeled as a hater towards Garris/Beasley and Juancho and how valuable their defense and shooting is for this team going forward.
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Post by jimijam28 on Jan 12, 2020 12:25:14 GMT -5
why would the pelican do that trade even before the season- NEVer would they do that unless you include MPJ,,
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Post by scooter on Jan 12, 2020 13:14:28 GMT -5
From the moment Beasley declined to sign extention with the Nuggets (3/30) i was the first one to urge Juancho/Beasley/Garris for Jrue trade while those players had way higher value then they have now. TC wanna stick with the continuity and lose players for free. When other teams trade for random player we laugh and whoever propose a certain trade is either a hater(not homer) or when it becomes obvious, then those players doesn't worth s**t right? Vision and guts is something that TC is never going to have... "Vision" is basically a governing philosophy; the Nuggets have had one and it's based on the Spurs' model of mostly developing their own players, valuing continuity and team culture, and being opportunistic to add the occasional role player who fits the team culture. So I'm going to disagree about "vision." It's fine to disagree with the governing philosophy, but I think it is incorrect to claim they don't have one. The governing philosophy has been driven in part by a recognition that Denver, like San Antonio, is not a marquee NBA market and it's a lot easier to retain players who have been trained up and nurtured by the organization than to retain players who have not (Ex. 1: Iguodala).
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Post by odvala on Jan 12, 2020 14:34:47 GMT -5
scooter Kudos and major props to TC for building that culture. Does that mean that if a player is in clear decline or not willing to resign you still wanna hold on to him? You made a valid points aboud "Vision" and forgot to add the second part "Guts". Bold moves combined with vision is what is needed going forward. Having friendly locker room, playing soccer in practice, being BFF with eachoter etc. is all nice, but this is a game of basketball. Talent and production on the court is what gives those players, your job and your team a validation. If we are afraid to take a shot at higher caliber player or all star via trade because he will leave us if we don't go far in the PO, then front office is in a wrong line of work. If we are in business of selling tickets, jerseys and singing "kumbaya my lord" then ok. Screw the vision and guts.
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Post by GBG on Jan 12, 2020 14:52:51 GMT -5
There’s an old saying in the investing world: The only way to make money is with guts and money.
Our roster and culture is the “currency” with which we could make a savvy investment (trade) that could yield a strong return (more playoff wins). Sitting on that currency and not taking risks is what old people like me do, being very risk-averse. TC has to think like a younger, more aggressive investor. Stop trying to preserve capital and seek aggressive growth! Show some guts!
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Post by blackhill on Jan 12, 2020 14:57:41 GMT -5
I appreciate the feedback re: the Latvian Laser. Good stuff.
At the end of last year, TC said we needed to get better at shooting in the offseason. We are now about 23rd in 3 point percentage.
Nugs need some marksmen. Bol Bol could help a lot, but Nugs need the forwards playing with Joker to be marksmen. Joker is so effective one on one right now. If his front court mates are true snipers, I would really like to see who can stop Nugs in the playoffs. Joker will rip the Clipps bigs to pieces and I would love to see Anthony Davis have to spend much of the series defending the perimeter or force Lakers to sit their bigs and have AD battle Joker blow for blow,.
Yes, the Grant/Issac/Gordon R2 unit model also compliments Joker well, and Millsap does too. Above all else though, Joker needs shooters as offense will always trump defense. I will upon a star tonight that TC has a similar view and is hatching a plot to bring Joker the shooters he needs to reach his potential.
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Post by rock on Jan 12, 2020 16:48:00 GMT -5
From the moment Beasley declined to sign extention with the Nuggets (3/30) i was the first one to urge Juancho/Beasley/Garris for Jrue trade while those players had way higher value then they have now. TC wanna stick with the continuity and lose players for free. When other teams trade for random player we laugh and whoever propose a certain trade is either a hater(not homer) or when it becomes obvious, then those players doesn't worth s**t right? Vision and guts is something that TC is never going to have... Agreed TC is too busy congratulating himself on a “successful “ season last year to try and improve the team
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Post by fortcollinsnuggets on Jan 12, 2020 17:02:52 GMT -5
I don't know about you guys, but IF Knicks go after Andre Drummond i would try to be a part of that trade for Mitchell Robinson. Don't know what would it take but i think it would be a no brainer upgrade long term over Plumdog. 7ft1 with a 7ft4 wingspan. Plum is 6ft11 with a 6ft11 wingspan. He has T rex arms. He is better defender than Plumdog imo, not better passer tho. And in 22 min he's averaging 10 points 7 boards and 1.8 blocks, would be an awesome duo with Bol Bol in the 2nd unit going forward. That dude would be a serious upgrade on our bench, and let Monte run the plays without the pressure of a begging Plumlee in the post. and you don't think Pistons would ask for Mitchell in any AD trade?
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Post by ThePoopSmith on Jan 12, 2020 17:03:30 GMT -5
Wonder what some sort of Harris, MPJ, Beas combo could net. All three have basically been s**t, probably should try and get something for them while you can. The MPJ take will get some of your feathers ruffled, but the dude has been TERRIBLE since his “breakout” game. Looks like a first grader on defense. I would include Murray too but no ones taking that trash contract.
Man we are in trouble, oh well though, still better than the Shaw years, early 2000s
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Post by ThePoopSmith on Jan 12, 2020 17:04:32 GMT -5
Also blows my mind that so many teams are interested in Andre f***ing Drummond, dude is Dwight Howard lite, but hey he had a lot of success
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Post by odvala on Jan 12, 2020 17:05:22 GMT -5
C.J. Miles will be a Denver Nugget by the end of the trade deadline.
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Post by fortcollinsnuggets on Jan 12, 2020 17:06:53 GMT -5
IF you want to jrue you going to have to give up MPJ - period- they are not taking that trade never. Good GM make a trade year earlier, not year later. Vision and guts. Now suck it up and lose valuable trade assets before the season for nothing or late 2nd round pick at best and pray that Garris somehow becomes a 2017 version of himself. But at the time when the deal was doable, i was labeled as a hater towards Garris/Beasley and Juancho and how valuable their defense and shooting is for this team going forward. Murray and Jru are basically the same player and you want two of them in the backcourt? The nuggets are a top team and you are not satisfied. Yo what does MJ,LBJ have in common? Neither won a chip at Jokic age. Nuggets are in win now mode but eyes towards when joker is in his morons at the same as Murray.TC has been excellent at his job and drafting and your hating on him. Lmao
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Post by odvala on Jan 12, 2020 17:08:25 GMT -5
fortcollinsnuggets Murray and Jrue are basically the same player? Enough said , no need to go any deeper.
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Post by ThePoopSmith on Jan 12, 2020 17:22:04 GMT -5
Good GM make a trade year earlier, not year later. Vision and guts. Now suck it up and lose valuable trade assets before the season for nothing or late 2nd round pick at best and pray that Garris somehow becomes a 2017 version of himself. But at the time when the deal was doable, i was labeled as a hater towards Garris/Beasley and Juancho and how valuable their defense and shooting is for this team going forward. Murray and Jru are basically the same player and you want two of them in the backcourt? The nuggets are a top team and you are not satisfied. Yo what does MJ,LBJ have in common? Neither won a chip at Jokic age. Nuggets are in win now mode but eyes towards when joker is in his morons at the same as Murray.TC has been excellent at his job and drafting and your hating on him. Lmao Murray and Jrue are two way different players dude.
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Post by JB on Jan 12, 2020 17:29:24 GMT -5
guts is not going all in for Jrue but taking a step back this season and recognizing the only path to contention is through MPJs development, even if that means losing in the first round this season instead of the second (and that isn't even a given).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2020 17:51:14 GMT -5
guts is not going all in for Jrue but taking a step back this season and recognizing the only path to contention is through MPJs development, even if that means losing in the first round this season instead of the second (and that isn't even a given). This but MPJ needs to become a professional. It's not Game 1 for him anymore. How the hell does he still not no where to stand on half court sets?
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Post by ThePoopSmith on Jan 12, 2020 18:04:46 GMT -5
guts is not going all in for Jrue but taking a step back this season and recognizing the only path to contention is through MPJs development, even if that means losing in the first round this season instead of the second (and that isn't even a given). This but MPJ needs to become a professional. It's not Game 1 for him anymore. How the hell does he still not no where to stand on half court sets? Yeah I guess this is my biggest issue. I get that this is MPJs rookie season and he’s been out of the game for two years but the s**t he’s f***ing up on is stuff you learn in elementary school. I’m worried he, like Beas, is just inherently stupid and will never get it.
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Post by scooter on Jan 12, 2020 18:26:59 GMT -5
There’s an old saying in the investing world: The only way to make money is with guts and money. Our roster and culture is the “currency” with which we could make a savvy investment (trade) that could yield a strong return (more playoff wins). Sitting on that currency and not taking risks is what old people like me do, being very risk-averse. TC has to think like a younger, more aggressive investor. Stop trying to preserve capital and seek aggressive growth! Show some guts! It doesn't matter what you or I think. For the most part, during Kroenke's ownership of the Nuggets, "swing for the fences" trades have backfired. In December 2006, the Nuggets traded Andre Miller, Joe Smith and 2 first round picks for Iverson (putting the Nuggets into the luxury tax after taking on Iverson's big salary). It was exciting for awhile, but the team went a combined 1-8 in two first round playoff series in 2007 and 2008 with Iverson. After less then 2 seasons, the Nuggets wound up trading Iverson to the Pistons to get the 32 year old Billups, a trade which did pay off for one season, with the team getting to the conference finals for the only time of the Carmelo era. They lost in the first round each of the next two seasons, and Billups was traded to the Knicks as part of the Carmelo deal. Big picture -- they used a pretty big bunch of assets to make a blockbuster deal for a former league MVP, went into the lux tax for a couple of seasons to afford it money-wise, and made it past the first round of the playoffs once out of the next 5 seasons. The Nuggets tried another "consolidation trade" in 2012. To acquire Iguodala from the 76ers in a 4 team trade, the Nuggets traded Aaron Afflalo, Al Harrington, a 2013 2nd round pick, and one of their Knicks' 1st rounders (from the Carmelo trade) -- which wound up being the 12th pick in the 2014 draft. Afflalo and Harrington were not bit players in 2011-12. Afflalo played 33.6 minutes/game averaging 15.2 points on shooting splits of 47/40/80. Harrington played 27.5 minutes/game averaging 14.2 points/6.1 rebounds. Harrington came off the bench in 2011-12, but averaged starters' minutes. So basically, two starters + a #12 overall pick + a 2nd round pick for Iquodala. For that they got one 57 win season and a first round playoff exit, and then Iguodala bolted to the Warriors as a free agent, leaving the Nuggets getting Randy Foye (and losing a 2018 2nd round pick) as compensation in the sign and trade that sent Iggy to the Warriors. Nice, huh? Once they started making "big" "gutsy" trades in 2006, the Nuggets won 1 playoff series in the following 12 seasons. Then last season, with a "home grown" team, they made it out of the first round for the first time in 10 seasons. This is how I think it looks to Stan and Josh Kroenke. Oh, and when it comes to their biggest deal ever -- trading Melo to the Knicks -- there's a pretty good argument that being on the other side of a "consolidation trade" (getting younger players + draft picks) wound up ultimately being the winning side of the deal. Just playing devil's advocate here.
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